6201 Princess Elizabeth

At the Sept AGM it was stated by the chairman that 2 quotes were needed for any engineering work!

 

I think you have hit upon the key issue Sidmouth.

Why spend a fortune when she seems to do little mainline work and when the loco's managment seems avoid jobs where possible... The difference in milage between, for example, 6201 and 6233 is huge as the Duchess group take a far more pro-active stance. Then compare this to other mainline operating groups who are actually bringing in a contribution to their next overhaul because of the quantity of work they are doing.

When i dontate i expect to see a return on my investment - i.e. the chance to see a locomotive working, an item of rolling stock in service, or a station been enjoyed by visitors... Not a loco sat at Crewe HC.

 

I don't believe there has been the will to grow, to gain new working members and so a greater availability.

I don't believe there has been the will to find work. It is all very well blaming operators for letting you down, but again its all in how the group act.

Has 6201 ever been asked to stand in at short notice for another loco. There have been plenty of times this year when a big engine has dropped out and a tour been cancelled - or that same tour operated by somthing like a Black 5 because the operator knows they can call the owner and get a YES.

 

Lets agree to disagree on the managment stratergy of 6201.

Sadly I wont be donating as I think the loco might be better on a plinth for a few years...

 

I am afraid that this sad tale merely serves to underline that it is very difficult for a big steam loco to earn its keep on the mainline. Arguably, the comparative shortage of locos (which has seen a number of trains cancelled) over the past couple of years should have been a "honey-pot" time for owners of serviceable engines. I think elsewhere on the forum, there has been comment that recent and forthcoming returnees will more than offset forthcoming ticket expirees (there's a new word!). Meanwhile, there are very few tours actually running at present and must be some uncertainty even over the summer regulars for 2009.

On one hand this begs the question as to whether this work on 6201 would be good money after bad, but it must be viewed in terms of buying not the next 6 months but the next 3 years.

Whilst I have been aware that mainline locos need other funds to survivie for some time, the general view I had always subscribed to was that surplus earnings wouldn't cover overhauls, not that annual running costs would eat up all income. This appears to be the situation with 6201. The loco has had its set backs and period out of traffic but it is not unique in that. It does seem very strange that there are no funds available at this point in a boiler ticket (correct me if I am wrong, but the practice of extending a mainline ticket beyond 7 years is quite recent and hence at one point 7 years is when the full overhaul is needed).

I know that the 6201 Society "don't do branch lines" (heritage railways) and 6201 is about as big a beast as would fit on the UK network (I suspect some heritage lines have run round headshunts shorter than 6201!) but a number of other locos mix mainline and heritage railway, and at least one I am aware of acknowledges the regular heritage line income is the main source of net funding.

6201's problem seems to centre around too few support crew to take on more work, yet too little income from the work that can be covered to keep the loco going. It is a classic business dialema, and by no means rare in the world of Railways, but unfortunately, the one solution that is least likely is the price for work than can be covered rising sufficiently to provide the funds needed.

Before any appeal and work to get 6201 back running again, I think the Society needs a business plan as to what that running will be and what return all concerned (including those making donations) will get. If the appeal can boost the support crew as well as bring in funds, then perhaps 6201 will have a better, long term chance but if even comparatively minor works can't be funded at 7 years, what is the chance for an overhaul at 10?

 

I totally agree, I am sorry but the witch hunt on here is getting silly, one of the better elements being that the chair is apparently not fit to hold the post as he is also involved in some owl charity.

This is a matter for the 6201 group to sort out amongst themselves and in private not in a public forum. I am not a member and have no connections with the loco or any of the parties involved, Equally I would be as disappointed as anyone if she does drop off the main line, but ultimately it is up to the (I assume) elected committee and membership to sort this out.

The recent call for further funding may act as a catalyst for more members of this forum who have been very forthright in their views to join the society. I don't get the arguments that it is not worth getting involved with the present committee in charge. There are a large number of people on here with very strong views, if you all joined I am sure that changes could be achieved through the democratic process which I would assume exists?

Finally I am interested by the moderators lack of action in relation to this thread. in light of the speed at which some other topics have been closed for various reasons, how much more personal mud needs to be slung against this gentleman on here before this thread is closed down? - I am not saying that it should be, just that it appears to be somewhat more vitriolic than others that have been shut.

 

Oh dear - blind loyalty - the establishment line - musn't rock the boat!

How many times have you seen this?

Look :- what happened here is that actions taken - which must have been decided on in advance - in the dead of night on the 30th August, stranded 6201 away from an already paid for and diagrammed "home base" move in the last hours of her current ticket, where this work could have been carried out, and the loco stored under cover. ELR volunteers were at Heywood ready to accept her from Network Rail metals at 02.00 when they were told the move was cancelled - how is that a businesslike way to conduct the society's business?

If anyone can tell me a justifiable reason why 6201 is now lying - outdoors, out of ticket, bereft of funds at Crewe when better arrangements were already set up at Bury - then I would like to hear it.

If that situation does not demand an explanation as to how this situation is to the benefit of the 6201 Society or its locomotive, then I would like to see one that does.

Phrases like witch hunt are easy to throw around- perhaps the ability to give a reasoned and justifiable explanation of why we are where we are may be more difficult. Read this thread and you will see that I started my correspondence supporting the current position - acquisition of in depth knowledge of what happened has totally changed my stance.

So sorry 6201 members - you can follow Clive, or you can try to move your society and interests forward - its up to you.

 

I was surprised to learn that Clive Mojonnier was secretary of the Owl Trust at Muncaster Castle. He is also Chairman of 6201 Soc and now a trustee of 6201 Trust, a recently unearthed trustee at Crewe Heritage, as well as secretary of MSLO, and we found out that he gives talks to railway societies. Added to this, his wife is in charge of sales with 6201 and is connected to a museum in Millom. I ask the question, how many other pies have they got their fingers in? No wonder it has taken such a long time to issue a statement, and even then through someone else.

 

Further to what Pendle Witch has said, I have been told that about 6 years ago Mr.Mojonnier had a desire to be Chairman of the S&C but his application was turned down in favour of someone else. I wonder what trouble he could have got them into if he had been given the position.

 

As a passive member of the 6201 society for 28 years I have been a little bemused at the level of opprobrium heaped onto our chairman. I have only met Clive briefly on railtours and as the recipient of some prompt polite hand written letters following the odd donation. I can only really judge the man by the remarkable achievements of the society to which he has been secretary or chairman whilst I have been a member and if he is only half the dictator that some have intimated his contribution to those achievements must be even more inestimable.
With Princess Elizabeth facing a fourth overhaul in the hands of such a small society it is not surprising if those at the sharp end wish to take a breath or two. I would like to thank all at the society involved with the running of 6201 for the opportunity I have had over the years to photograph and travel behind this wonderful locomotive.
I will respond to our treasurer's letter with the price of a small tube and hope that there is enough support within and outside the society for our Stanier Pacific to continue on the main line.

 

6201 to me is a lost cause and should be retired off the mainline. Its had it's window and blown the incentive.

They have had the chance to make money but lets face it, in 2009 we have a recession and a massive cut back in the number of tours.
Additionally some companies are going to run tours with their own locomotives and not need 6201.

For the remaining tours.. there are the all new & sexy 60163, 70013, 5043, 70000, 60019, 60007, 46115, 44871, 44932, 34046, 6100.. thats 11 major new entrants all chasing a shrinking pot. and compared to what we lose.. 60009, 6233 thats a big increase in the locomotive pool.

To me 6201 is going to be percieved as "old", "boring" and "yesterdays engine" for many tours the promoters will definitely be looking to the newer, hungrier, eager and popular engines, not the Same ole, same ole, yeah yeah 6201 again (lets face it everyone at some stage has thought 6201 is just "lizzie again in Manchester, Liverpool, York or the S&C" and so on )... even 5690 doesnt suffer this image as it's hard to catch on the mainline and does some interesting (and often rare) moves around the system...S&C and GCR being the latest "1sts for many years". 71000 and 6233 show their flexibility.

If 6201 is going to compete in the market it's going to need a new edge... 46201 ?, Scottish railtours or some tours from London ? But seriously asking for cash for another 3 years with empty reserves and a such competitive locomotive fleet on the market in such hard time... 6201 to me doesnt look that attractive. The oppourtunity has been had and lost... if it's same old same old... then theres other engines in the market place showing more promise and more oppourtunity for cash than 6201.. either as a donation or a railtour ticket.

 

Some very true points.

Alex

 

I have no connection to Lizzie other than being a great admirer of her and I regret at not having had the opportunity to travel behind her on the mainline. I have followed this thread with great interest though and some of the trust's actions certainly have raised more questions than answers..

In this month's Steam Railway there is an interesting article regarding 71000 'Duke of Gloucester' the society of which is described as being very short of money following it's latest repairs. Their solution to try and claw back some of their outlay is to keep it off the mainline for 2008 and run it at none other than the East Lancashire Railway which is decribed as having a '..steam shortage'. The East Lancs has never been shy of using larger locomotives especially with the forthcoming santa special season where I believe quite lengthy trains can run.

Why do the Duke trust see this as a viable solution to their financial problems whereas Lizzie was prevented from going to the ELR and is currently unable to move never mind earn money? That is the question to which an answer has yet to be given.. The list of work required I assume is whats needed for a mainline ticket, for preserved line work I would assume that the list would be shorter and therefore cheaper? I guess this is the route 71000 has taken as the trust wish to replace both cam levers before they go mainline again, yet she is still able to earn steaming fees in the meantime.

Some strange decisions have been made and I make a plea that if the group decide that either now or at the end of the ticket they can not overhaul 6201 that they stand aside and allow someone else who can instead of rebuking them which it is alledged they did at the start of this thread. 6201 is a national treasure and deserves a future in steam and, like any steam loco, will last much longer than the members of the society to which she belongs.

 

To me it seams that the Duke society have realised that they are going to get more money from steaming fees and regular running from staying at the ELR for the remainder of 2008. This atleast gives the Duke plenty of running with crews and a railway thats used to her, where she is of use and where she isnt really being worked to hard. It also means that she isnt travelling left and right up and down of the country on tours and light engine movements which all require support crew. As with other private engines they are still likely to provide owners reps and footplate crew but its probably alot easier to do so at the ELR than around the national network.

If 6201 had gone back to the ELR then she would of been able to haul trains for another 3 years but at the end of the day it comes down to those in charges as to where they choose to run her. Clouded judgement could have come in here and the mainline with bright lights around it could have easily pushed running at the ELR to finish the ticket to one side to those who have the power.

Just my opinion anyway.

Alex

 

A nice idea but is this solution really going to work? For a loco to really earn sufficient funds in hire fees it needs to be in daily service whenever it is available. Very few railways are in a position to offer this for the majority of the time. This is where the Jacobite locos are very fortunate, earning relatively large fees on a daily basis. Weekend running for 71000 (and 6201, as suggested) isn't going to significantly swell the coffers.

 

Totally agreed, but the 6201 society could of secured work this winter had it decided to stay off the mainline, surely weekend running is better than 1 maybe 2 tours a month?

Alex