6201 Princess Elizabeth

I interpret this as saying that people (no matter how proffessional and respected they may be) have indeed 'cocked-up', but aren't prepared to admit it. In this sort of renovation work there are bound to be problems, it is how well - or otherwise - they are overcome that decides peoples reputations.

The current situation sounds rather like that of our present Government.

 

I stayed here on Friday - and missed CM who was out and about.

It would have been interesting to have a word - and see why he was where he was.

 

If 6201 really has engineering "issues", could this mean the end of Stanier Pacifics on main lines for a while? With 6233 being withdrawn from mainline service in September, and NRM saying that 6229 will not be out and about before 2011 (I'm betting on 2012, for the Olympics), what's left?

6203? I doubt it but perhaps someone from Midland Railway can enlighten us.

Shouldn't ALL minds be concentrating on keeping Lizzie going, provided her long-term future isn't risked? The kind of rivalry I've read on this my first excursion to this board is surely a luxury the preservation scene can't afford.

 

the engineering issue was just yet another rumour generated by some of the disciples trying to put a spanner in the works.......... and that Lizzie is "now" in good hands at LNWR, albeit without covered storage for the time being . In fact now several issues have been found and fixed on the engine she is better than she has been for a good while.

 

So she wasn't in good hands when she was at the ELR?
You're digging a big hole for yourself efiste2.

 

the words "lizzie is now in good hands" means she is in fact in good hands under the new engineer, as opposed to having NO ENGINEER, and just to ratify whats been said before many times, EVERYBODY that knows the last 6201 engineer has nothing but respect for him as a person and as a proffessional engineer, and had wanted nothing but the best for his engine. and that is a FACT. And I also havnt actually "stated" that the loco wasnt in good hands at ELR. they are another posters words.
I also agree with sidmouth, this one has run its course and is going round in circles.......the main point is LIzzie is "touch wood" back on the mainline where she belongs and i appeal to all genuine enthusiasts involved, to get behind the people trying to keep her there for as long as possible. as for all thats been said and done, thats what this forum is all about PRESERVATION, not a public slanging match.

 

I think it best we focus future messages in this thread about the future of this engine, or maybe it's more distant past.

I dont theres much to be gained discussing the last 6 months, unless some new events happen.

 

As a sofa based observer of recent events I am pleased to see this loco back on the mainline even if many questions are still unanswered. Rightly or wrongly the owners have finally admitted publically that it's future base is to be Crewe and, despite issues regarding covered accomodation, whilst she's working on the mainline this would seem logical-many pacifics are based there whilst working in the area and she will receive regular attention. I think mine and many other's biggest fears will be realised in 2011 when she's withdrawn from the mainline. I don't think there exists the will or finance to overhaul this locomotive again in it's current ownership and my fear is that it will languish at Crewe after 2011, with it's many admirers and supporters drifting away. Contrast this with 6233 whose owners have already commited to a quick overhaul and you will see the difference in attitude and future fortunes for the two locomotives. Right at the beginning of this thread it was suggested that an organisation or individual had made an offer to take Lizzie on and overhaul her for future mainline use. This was firmly rebutted and to their credit the loco has (for now) against the odds returned to service. My fear is that a future on a plinth or worse beckons for Lizzie after 2011 as some form of static attraction for the Heritage Centre (read 'City of Birmingham'). This locomotive for me though deserves a future in steam and if another organisation can still offer this in 3 years time I hope egos don't stand in the way of preventing this. A locomotive doesn't age, it's as good as it's last overhaul. This isn't the same for owning groups and if a more youthful owner has the energy, enthusiasm and (more imporatntly) finance to breathe life into a locomotive where the current custodians don't then I feel they have a moral duty to should stand aside and let the locomotive have a future and allow future generations to enjoy it IN STEAM. Obviously everyone will say an owner or society can do what they like and I await the flack, but can you really own something like 6201? You are custodians of it for a period of time and sooner or later it will outlive you. At this point you must look at what will be best for the loco's future for the next generation and the best future for any loco, especially a mainline pacific, is a working future.This is where selfishness and egos must be cast aside if someone else can offer that.

 

With the sad demise of Past Time Rail will another tour operater come on the scene,talking about overhauling it in 2011 is long way off.
With the best will in the world i think you would be looking at 2014 before it could be overhauled and the thick end of £1000,000 .Ithink we will see a reduction in mainline approved engines so the few that are a round will be more viable .

Nothing is for ever.

 

Very good question "...can you really own something like 6201?"

I wonder how many owners would be willing to declare their intent by signing their letters as "current steward of no. ......".

In a way, steam locos are like stately homes. They give the owner pride and delight, pull in the public, privileged access to them really IS a privilege; but they need constant attention and cost a packet.

Maybe we need a National Trust? And no, the NRM wouldn't fill the bill - they act as if they're English Heritage.

 

Many posts back I made the same point.

We - any of us - can only be stewards of anything heritage, because if we do our job properly the article concerned will outlive us.

The situation is that 6201 is now managed by a group of people of retirement age who aren't willing to step aside to let younger people already involved with their loco both acquire the additional skills of management and form a strategy for the future.

At the outset of this thread I took a line supportive of retirement as there appeared to be no-one out there to take up the baton.

It now appears that the baton is being jealously clutched to prevent someone else getting their fingers on it.

That is not a praiseworthy stance - but only time - or a large serving of humble pie will recover this nonsensical situation.

 

I have followed this thread with some interest-clearly emotions very high- I have no particular prejudice but a couple of observations:-

If the engine went on the market (and I dont know if the trust constitution allows) I'm sure there would be buyers. Several big name engines have traded for significant sums in the last 5 years (okay pre economic crisis) but there is demand.

Realistically I concur with sentiments that we will see fewer main line engines in the pool in the decade ahead and consolidation to well established steam operators Tys/Bury/Carnforth etc. Beyond this only the most organised single engine groups will have anything like a sustainable model for main line running particularly absent several lottery grants without which many (6201 included I believe) wouldnt be on the big railway in any case- 6201 not the only group besieged by politics- indeed to the outsider 6024 has had its problems with its engineer departed; 71000 same thing......Yet it seems these guys have come on for a mighty sledging.

In fairness to the group they have restored her; put a lot of man hours in to keep her on the main line. Opinions re the engineer and outside storage aside; shes looks and sounds great, is available for main line running (lest forget 6024/Duke/Nellie are not) the time to judge the people behind the group is the action they take (in the engines interests or otherwise) at the end of the ticket and not now.

 

I think we will see a gradual change over the next few years with single loco societies no longer able to fund locomotive overhauls. This is already happening, look how many engines are currently with us due to the lottery. This doesn't have to be the end for these locos though as there are those who are willing to take them on with Carnforth and a Mr.J Hosking springing to mind and i'm sure a big name loco like Lizzie would attract considerable interest. Perhaps train operating companies like WCRC and businesses like Riley's and Tyseley will prove to be the way ahead with additional income supporting the running of engines. Of course a fleet of engines allows for economies of scale when it comes to overhauls and an operating engine can earn income for one under restoration -62005 being the main earner for NELPG for example and helping others in the fleet to return to steam. Southern Locomotives at Swanage also do this quite successfully. We have already witnessed a bit of a withdrawal from the mainline with the Severn Valley and the the Mid Hants no longer participating when the costs of TPWS and OTMR came into being. They do of course still host mainline locos but these are owned by private individuals who can finance this additional expense. The end of mainline steam has been predicted for years but it is still here and I for one believe it will still be here in another 10 years-so long as there's a demand it will run. I am not saying that it will be running in its' current format and I think the demise of Past Time Rail shows that the days of the traditional promoter could be numbered with the costs of hiring everything in proving too much. Companies like WCRC and Vintage Trains have a clear advantage here with owning stock and locos.
What has this got to do with 6201? It says that it has got a future but not in it's current format. This is a highly marketable locomotive that can haul big loads at high speeds with a big fan base. It just needs to be in the custody of an organisation that can manage it effectively and make it work. We are beyond the stage where a single loco can pay for it's own overhaul so there does need to be a secondary source of income and this means the locomotive has to be part of a larger business. Even Clan Line needed a leg up last time and it has the lucrative VSOE contract and 4472 has never made a profit. It will be interesting to watch the A1 trust over the next few years and see how they tackle this problem. Of course times change but it just means organisations have to change with them and be more innovative. How long will it be before we see an engine bought by a wealthy Arab or Russian? If they've got the money then it could be the way ahead for 6201 and others to steam into the future.

 

The talk ten months ago was that there Riley was someone out there with proposals for 6201's long term future.

Was that why steps were taken in the dead of night to make damned sure that the future proposed could not happen by not allowing 6201 to leave Crewe on 01/09/08 eh? fistey???

Acorb has got it spot on -

See you in May 2012,when the ten years runs out

 

I don't want to get involved with the 6201 debate but the future of main line steam is worth a response. A big difference between the Riley/WCRC/NELPG organisations and many of the other loco owning groups is that they do their best to make sure that their locos are out there, earning their keep for as many days as possible and thus bringing in the money. This is very dependent on having support crew available. With volunteers, this is very difficult to achieve and generally can only be done if paid staff are employed in this role. NELPG is incredibly supported by its members and it is amazing that their dedication allows them to put 62005 out on a daily basis throughout the summer. I doubt any other volunteer only organisation has that capability. However, it does largely rely on retired individuals who are able to dedicate their time in this way and, like everybody, these people are getting older. Main line steam can pay; these organisations have shown that but to do so, it needs to be run as a proper business and not a part time hobby

 

Think you've summed it up there. That is not to say locomotive societies do not take things seriously and many hours of hard graft are put in by a brilliant dedicated bunch of people to get the phenomenal amount of steam we enjoy today. Unfortuntately hard graft and determination isn't going to pay for overhauls and unlike the early days of preservation where a lot of the boiler work required could be completed by volunteers it now has to be expensively contracted out. Also there is increased wear and tear as locomotives are worked hard and intensively (e.g 62005) to try and earn the money required. You now need a group that can raise big six figure sums consistently and reliably, a bit different to early preservation raffles and table top sales.. As I said previously I think the A1 trust will be the one's to watch as they appear to be an incredibly professionally run organisation who appear to have the innovation to overcome these obstacles and I think a lot of locomotive groups need to watch them closely if they plan to carry on as they are.
In response to Sidmouth I am certain we will see big changes over the next few years, but i think what will emerge is a more sustainable way of running mainline steam with it being financed by multiple revenue sources, not just ticket sales and hire fees which can not cover future overhaul costs alone. Steam has overcome many obstacles but the reality is that at the moment we have more mainline steam tours running than at any time in the past, so there clearly is a demand. Making a profit out of this is proving more of a challenge it would seem to the traditonal promoter with such high initial costs and knife edge break even points. I would predict therefore that people like WCRC, Riviera, VSOE and Vintage Trains will be the best ones to take things forward as they already own stock and/or locomotives. All these companies also have alternative sources of income and are not reliant purely on ticket sales, so their eggs aren't all in one basket.. What will disappear gradually is the expensive one off's though Steam Dreams and the Railway Touring Company still seem to be doing ok at present -but then I thought that about Past Time Rail!

 

I may well be wrong (usually am!) but I get the impression that the A1 Group are finding themselves a bit stretched with all the support work now that the loco is up and running. Before you commit your loco to work you need people to commit to being available when required. Plenty of people may volunteer on the day but getting them to commit beforhand is a different matter.