6201 Princess Elizabeth

I am one of the people disgusted by what has happened to 6201 and the treatment of Roy Kerry really irks me. However I have to take issue with part of Tbird frank's post. 6201 is not out of ticket, this does not occur until March 2009. What was required was the yearly insurance exam to be done. If there had been any indication of problems with its tubes it would not have passed its FTR exam prior to running on its train. I feel that a little bit of dramatisation has been included in tbirds post that is un-neccessary, but saying that I am gutted about what has happened to the loco.

 

I seem to recall that a similar tube issue stopped Knowle early on it's ticket, meaning that it couldn't make it to Embsay and Foxfield. (If it's any consolation guys, we're still gutted about it, too.) Is there an issue with the quality of tubes these days? Has someone who was making them stopped, or gone out of business? The options now seem unusually narrow....

 

Wow, everyones passionate on this forum, but as a joe public normal reading this forum, the way I see it is..

The owners of 6201 dont want to sell, but they dont want to be spending huge fortunes of time and money traveling the country on a shoestring. Instead of selling it to the unknown they want to make a legacy for the future.
Lets face it in 20 years 6201 has never been off the mainline... it's always been around, give the engine a rest.

For years Crewe Heritage Centre was neglected and failing to reach potential, especially given it's important position in railway history. Maybe with 6201 as an exhibit and the years of experience the 6201 support group possess, this represents a great potential for Crewe to develop.

If left at Bury, no one would see it for many years as they have no means to display it, and if back on the mainline.. it would dilute the pot even more for the ones we have not yet seen on the mainline.

I have ridden behind and photographed 6201 for many years and as a friend of mine once said when videoing 6201 in the early 1990s at Ashton Moss Junction.. "lets face it 6201 will be here in 20 years but will the signal box ?". If 6201 retired for 20 years but my offspring get to see it, and in the mean time Crewe becomes a major railway musuem (who knows maybe they will some day relocate into the works itself ?) then isnt that a good thing ?
If no one takes on Crewe and exhibits continue to fail there.. what happens then to say the APT or even mainline steam from Crewe ?

My only gripe would be a bit more advance notice this was going to happen, but if it isnt the end (as some suggest).. at least now we all know the future and have a few more months to plan for it.

Had Bressingham not provided a home to 70013 and 6100, if the public were not drawn to Bressingham over 40 years , we would not be having 70013 & 6100 today after 40 years rest.

Taking 6201 to Crewe now could possibly be the best way to save it for the future and in 40 years she could return for the next generation.. in the mean time yes we lose 6201, 6233, 60009, 4771 all of which have run for years.. but we gain 70013, 46115, 6100, 5043 and more which we have never had before.

Thanks to both 6201, Crewe & ELR, Bulmers Hereford and anyone else for years of fun.

Dont just look for the bad.. look for the potential.

How about some nice memories of 6201 ?

 

Wouldn't disagree that if at Bury it would be hidden away (until the 'Didcot of the north' project is done) but at least it would have been under cover..................

 

The space in Bury Shed is needed / should be devoted to locos that can run on the ELR- we haven't any room for locos just for 'storage', and that 'might' run in x years time.
Very sad that this has happened to Lizzy, but on a positive note, at least some of the support lads have now joined the ELR steam dept.

 

Can I suggest that having a static Princess Elisabeth at Crewe will not actually make a huge difference to the Centre's success (which I hope it has).
Green Arrow had a fitting finale, 6201 still has a boiler ticket and deserves the same in my opinion.

 

I admit to being no engineer, but my understand from past observation and being involved in the financial side of railway preservation is that replacemnt on of small tubes on a medium sized loco is a job that can be done in under a month and the cost of materials will be under £10,000 (that could be a bit out of date). 6201 has done a good few trips this summer - the society must have been very badly in debt from the last overhaul/set of repairs if there isn't sufficient funds from this work to cover this work if that is all that is needed for a 3 year mainline ticket extension. I know the 6201 Society "don't do branch lines", so preserved line work is out of the question, but even if a larger loco takes a couple of months and cost £20k in materials, 3 years of trips would seem to provide a pay back.

Seems somewhat odd.

 

6201 was absent from the Mainline between 1993 and 2002.

 

Let me try to summarise from the above, heated debate. As I see it, there are three issues here:

1) A pre-arranged trip to Bury was cancelled at very short notice. The loco should have had a 6-monthly insurance inspection to allow mainline work until the expiry of the present 7-year boiler ticket in March 2009. Instead, it is stuck at Crewe, unable to do any work until it has been inspected. This is the thing that appears to have divided members of the society and led to the resignation of the chief engineer.

2) There exists a possibility of an extension to the boiler certificate from March 2009 (up to 3 years?), subject to unspecified work being completed first. The nature and cost of this work is unknown at this stage.

Both these issues raise the following questions:
i) Is it viable? I.e. will the money spent on any repairs (including cost of accommodating the loco) to pass the inspections be recouped by the extra revenue earned pulling trains?
ii) Does the owning society have the personnel, the funds and the will to carry out the necessary repairs and then operate the locomotive afterwards.

3) It is almost certain that the loco will not receive another heavy overhaul when the present boiler certificate (extended or not) expires. Therefore, it needs a home where it can be kept in good condition and displayed to the public, in such a way that an overhaul in the future remains an option, if circumstances change.

Before all this blew up, how many of us realised that Lizzie was so close to the end of her main-line career? A couple of recent posts have compared her situation with that of Green Arrow, which I think is a fair comparison. But would any of us have made that comparison 6 weeks ago? Apart from one or two society members, probably not. Although the missed appointment at Bury is regrettable (to say the least!) it has drawn a lot of attention to the loco's situation. Now, it may be that relations between the key people have been damaged beyond the point where the society can continue to function, or their erstwhile partners are prepared to work with them again. However, I hope not, and I even dare to hope that some good may come out of it.

I think there's a bit of brinkmanship going on. "Lizzie will be stuffed and mounted because we don't have the money nor skilled personnel young enough to restore her." I hear an implied "unless..." Unless what? Unless a "white knight" steps forward with a large donation? Unless lots of people join the society, join the support crew, joint the fund-raising team, join the restoration team? If your society was in this position, wouldn't you portray the situation as bleakly as possible, to show that you are serious about the situation?

Several people here have expressed a willingness to donate funds to get Lizzie a 3-year extension, if that's feasible. Count me in, too. I suggest that we all join the society first, and promise to make donations once the survey has been done. efiste2 - can you tell us how the society is constituted, please? Can anyone join? Where can we get membership forms? What's the annual sub? When's the next AGM? Does anyone fancy serving on the committee? Maybe our concern and enthusiasm will give heart to the society?

Maybe it's time to stop ranting and start getting involved.

 

is lizzie stored under cover at present

 

No, there is NO covered accomodation at the Heri, she's just rotting away outside now.

 

Right well all this namby pamby ness about her being better off at crewe is utter crap she is going to be worse off there as she is outside better off back at home and with new blood im more than willing to work on her as are others but it appears she is owned by a closed sect.

 

We need to know more about how the owning company and/or society is constituted. How much influence can the membership exert at AGMs, etc? This is where we need some existing society members, such as efiste2, to post information.

 

Your naievete knows no bounds sometimes.

It may be dissapointing to see 6201's current state but not everything in life is forever.

 

Is it a characteristic of railway enthusiasts that they lack any sense of proportion or irony? It seems to me that the same people clamouribng for the instant overhaul of 6201 are the same peole who get bored with an engine after a while when something new comes along.

Over the past couple of years we have seen the return the main line of Bittern, Lord Nelson, Oliver Cromwell, Earl of Mount Edgcumbe, Scots Guardsman, with Tornado, Britannia, Royal Scot, Braunton, 44871, KE2 etc still to come - all of these have either been off the main line for years, if they have ever run since withdrawal by BR. Set against this, is it such a tragedy that 6201 is taking a rest? Even if the present controlling group don't want her to run again, if we are going to be brutally honest, they are probably all in their 60s and in 10 or 20 years time will mostly have faded away, at which point it is quite possible that there will be a change of opinion.

 

Maybe some people... but not all.

At the moment, she is on a downward slope to oblivion, virtually abandoned.
Maybe in twenty years time the policy will change but it would be a damn sight easier to do something with her now than it will be after she has stood for twenty years.
This isn’t Lord Nelson or some other problem ridden loco… this is 6201 and she deserves better.

 

Oh dear. Someone's not going to be popular.

 

](*,)

Ok everyone... lets leave all unique/last of their kind locos that have problems outside to rot.

It doesnt matter how unreliable/reliable any particular loco is. They are ALL part of history and preservation, and ALL deserve the best treatment.

 

lol... I am past caring. =;