6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

I consider myself a keen enthusiast & as such undoubtedly prefer engines in their 'correct' livery for their current condition & to represent an 'as it was' appearance but what I also accept is, there has to be compromise in today's world of railway operation be it preserved or mainline operation.
Preserved steam railways & loco owners do a very good job of recreating the ambience of what it might have been but modern operating rules & H&S render everything in today's world as just that, a modern version of how it might have been, not an authentic recreation which can hardly ever be achieved.
You can pick fault with virtually any engine or any train running on any line if you start going into finer details of historical correctness.
There should also be more of an acceptance that for commercial & income reasons some things aren't historically correct but necessary for operation.
Using Galatea as an example as it seems to create much debate, what is it recreating? I would say nothing. It runs almost exclusively on the national network & today's railtours bear little relation to 'how it was' in term of authenticity or historical accuracy.
What it does do is recreate the experience of steam hauled trains on longer runs at higher speeds than what preserved railways can offer. If the colour is incorrect does it matter in this situation? Not to Joe Public.
Whilst I'm not particularly a fan of 45699's current livery take a moment to think about the condition it was in when WCRC bought it, little more than a boiler on frames & not even with a full complement of wheels so I defy anyone to argue that it's not in a better place now even with a spurious livery. Run it as it is now or have it left to rot – no contest even with a dodgy paint job.
I would just like a little more acknowledgement that there has to be a balance between operating decades old technology in today's world. Compromises have to be made & if that is the sacrifice we have to pay for operational steam then so be it.
Maybe there is more scope for greater historical accuracy with non-operational museum exhibits perhaps? They could have more time & effort put in to their appearance to make them historically accurate & they can be studied in more detail & will cover the educational aspect alluded to in previous posts.

 

Very cogent and well articulated points to my mind, thanks.

 

But to use your own argument against a red 8F, "that would lead future historians to believe that 6100 was rebuilt by the LMS and carried post war black."

 

Thanks 26D

 

Preserved steam railways & loco owners do a very good job of recreating the ambience of what it might have been but modern operating rules & H&S render everything in today's world as just that, a modern version of how it might have been, not an authentic recreation which can hardly ever be achieved.
- True, but wouldn't an authentic recreation be better achieved carrying an authentic livery?

You can pick fault with virtually any engine or any train running on any line if you start going into finer details of historical correctness.
- True, but the colour/livery of a loco isn't really a finer detail.

There should also be more of an acceptance that for commercial & income reasons some things aren't historically correct but necessary for operation.
- So 45699 in LMS crimson wouldn't be as commercially viable...?

Using Galatea as an example as it seems to create much debate, what is it recreating? I would say nothing. It runs almost exclusively on the national network & today's railtours bear little relation to 'how it was' in term of authenticity or historical accuracy.
- Same could be said for any loco running on today's network...

Whilst I'm not particularly a fan of 45699's current livery take a moment to think about the condition it was in when WCRC bought it, little more than a boiler on frames & not even with a full complement of wheels so I defy anyone to argue that it's not in a better place now even with a spurious livery. Run it as it is now or have it left to rot – no contest even with a dodgy paint job.
- So after all that work surely even more reason to get the livery right..?

I would just like a little more acknowledgement that there has to be a balance between operating decades old technology in today's world. Compromises have to be made & if that is the sacrifice we have to pay for operational steam then so be it.
- Painting something inauthentic is a compromise that has to be made...?

Maybe there is more scope for greater historical accuracy with non-operational museum exhibits perhaps? They could have more time & effort put in to their appearance to make them historically accurate & they can be studied in more detail & will cover the educational aspect alluded to in previous posts.
- Does it take more time and effort to paint it in something authentic..?

 

Not true. It ran for most of its 10-year ticket in GCR livery and only went into BR black for, IIRC, the last gala before its ticket expired.

 

Er - I didn't say any of the above. Misquoted I'm afraid.

The problem isn't repainting a locomotive from one authentic livery into another authentic livery, it's the painting into an inauthentic livery full stop. As has been said before: why go to the trouble and expense of overhauling and restoring a locomotive to working order and then paint it in a fictitious livery?

We're not talking about rivet counting but a genuine question as to why a spurious livery is chosen. Yes, we're aware some are for genuine commercial aims/owner's prerogative, but some equally are bizarre. Galatea in the BR red when she could have looked equally vivid, and accurate, in LMS crimson lake just doesn't make any sense to me. The Green 9F on the other hand justified itself as an Evening Star recreation was possible - an authentic portrayal if not the real thing.

 

But that's the point. No 8fs ever carried anything other than a black livery and variations thereof.

A limited number of Royal Scots (but not Royal Scot herself) did carry the black livery. One is a representation of other class members and the other never happened. A big difference.

 

Which part of what I said wasn't true? It was repainted black by enthusiasts, perhaps not as soon as it arrived, but it took time to raise the cost. The point I was making was that it carried a colourful livery which would have been attractive to the oft-mentioned Joe Public, so was repainted in run of the mill BR black. I can't quite make the connection between the two, or the desirability for a variety of colours.

 

True, but the colour/livery of a loco isn't really a finer detail.
In your opinion, in mine looking at what WCRC started with, in terms of Galatea it is & probably in terms of the cost of the restoration as well.

So 45699 in LMS crimson wouldn't be as commercially viable...?
No more or no less than its current livery in its current sphere of operation, that's my point.

So after all that work surely even more reason to get the livery right..?
Its up to the owner.

Painting something inauthentic is a compromise that has to be made...?
In some cases it has to be tolerated yes.

 

I've got to say, I agree with what Mr forty is saying, he talks a lot of sense IMO.

 

By the sounds of it that's an example that was done well. The majority of its ticket it spent in a nice colourful livery, then probably as it was getting a bit tatty it got a repaint and renewed interest for the final few months, and probably some.extra money in the pot from photo charters. For whatever reason BR black seems to be the most popular lovely for photo charter people. I like to point to the recent example of the GWSR. Only last couple of years have we accepted photocharters. In that time we've had BR black 7820 and GWR green 4270 return to steam, both have suitable matching rolling stock on the line, but 7820 has had loads of photocharters and 4270 might have had one at one point?

 

A very good post.
I am in favour of preservationists getting things "right" as opposed to "wrong" but at the same time I recognise the right of owners to make such variations on "right" as they see fit. I also realise that 100% authenticity is something almost impossible to achieve. Most heritage lines run busier and more frequent services than they did for most or all of their pre preservation existence. They've also had to develop more facilities than would have been present pre closure. Sheffield Park is a good example. Whilst the core of the station is recognisably LBSCR, the addition of the shop, Bessemer Arms, loco works etc. means that overall it looks nothing like what it did 100 years ago. I don't hear the purists calling for all these additions to be torn down in the name of authenticity but they'd soon pipe up if 34059 emerged in BR lined black or the Bluebell's house livery. The KWVR is a wonderful line, a typical MR branch of the 1950s but Damems Loop is a post preservation addition and many of the locos would never have been seen on the branch. Do these purists refuse to shoot 34092? I doubt it even though it's far from a BR(S) environment but as it's in a correct BR livery the rolling stock and the setting is ignored by those to whom Galatea is anathema. I could go on but I think I've made my point.

 

To me colour is not the important bit, it's the engineering, the skill that some folk possess that can bring these machines to life. It's hard skilled work.I read Mr Rileys posts, I went up to Darlington and saw the work being done on Tornado and I regret not taking my chance when I was a school boy. Mr Riley says with the move to new premises they will be taking on more apprentices, on to be 16/17 again.

 

Joe public doesn't just ride on the trains, he/she admires them, and takes photos of them, maybe with the kids standing in front. I submit that while he/she may not know precisely what variety of authentic or not it is, he/she will have an opinion on how attractive it looks.

Which goes back, why did the old companies spend a fortune on lining out, colours, cleaners, all the rest of it, and the answer has to be because they felt they would get more passengers than if everything was unrelieved filth.

So, if you want passengers on your heritage line, should you follow the example of the earlier lines, or should you take as a model BR in the late 50s and 60s when all too many staff, managers and politicians didn't seem to care whether they had passengers or not?

 

Ahh, something we can agree on, Jim!

 

Joe public doesn't just ride on the trains, he/she admires them, and takes photos of them, maybe with the kids standing in front. I submit that while he/she may not know precisely what variety of authentic or not it is, he/she will have an opinion on how attractive it looks.

Absolutely and some peoples interpretation of that is to paint an 8f red or a 9f green rather than boring black!!

Which goes back, why did the old companies spend a fortune on lining out, colours, cleaners, all the rest of it, and the answer has to be because they felt they would get more passengers than if everything was unrelieved filth. So, if you want passengers on your heritage line, should you follow the example of the earlier lines, or should you take as a model BR in the late 50s and 60s when all too many staff, managers and politicians didn't seem to care whether they had passengers or not?

Don't quite agree with the correlation there Jimc but I understand what you're saying. If I can say BR wasn't always rundown & dirty, a loco in BR lined black, green blue or red looks just as good as any pre nationisation livery in my opinion. All today's railways treasure their loco's & stock to the extent that whatever livery they carry they are usually turned out in almost ex works condition so of course they do care about the image they present. Having said that an interesting by-product of this philosophy is there is now a growing interest in muckying up a loco to represent it in a dirty condition & how it might have looked in the latter years of steam on BR so maybe you are right!!

 

The interest in mucking up locos tends to come from photographers for photo charters. Without that demand I can't see railways letting their locos get overly grubby intentionally.

 

Yes I did mean deliberately dirtied for a gala/charter rather than a lack of upkeep. Most recently demonstrated by the KWVR with 90733 changed to a grubby 90711 & very effective it looked too.

 

No, an 8F was never red rebuilt Scots did appear in 1946 livery. Big difference.