6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

Sorry and with respect but I wasn't addressing you. I'm addressing my old sparring partner johnb with whom I will no doubt cross swords next time we meet on the line side.

 

Nice to know there are other realists out there who understand what I'm trying to say, thanks.

 

I presume the reason Carnforth painted Galatea in BR red was to see what it looked like...
Various people over the years have speculated what the non-Pacific ex-LMS express types would have looked like in this livery. Now we know - pretty good (aesthetically I mean, not authentically or compared to LMS livery).
I think it is just a big What-If being played out.
Those who think it is somehow a deliberate slap in the face to them probably vastly overestimate how interested Mr Smith and co are in anyone else's opinion.
I personally would like to see how 71000 would look in BR red. Any takers...?

 

Well if that's what they really did want to do then they should have bought a tin of the correct shade of red, the current colour is way off beam. As for 71000 I would think you've got no hope, the DofG folk won't want their funding drying up. What I suggest you do is take a picture of it when its back and buy a copy of Photoshop and you can then have it in any colour you want.

 

Interesting I think that each generation has its own fads which affect their maintenance/restoration decisions. At the moment we have a to me excessive emphasis on a certain style of authenticity of individual items of stock and enthusiasm for BR black.

As I recall our fathers/grandfather's had a big thing about originality, which meant given two locos to preserve they'd want the one that was closest to original spec without all the design flaws fixed.

Oh well, I won't be around to see what sacred cows your grandchildren agonise about...

 

The commercial reasons you allude to appear to have the flip side of disrespecting loco identities.

For reinvention to be necessary to generate income, that means a loco in it's authentic livery must not be capable of achieving this...?

To me it seems more like - it's my loco so I'll just paint it in whatever spurious livery I like...

 

Nothing anyone has said here has convinced me there's a commercial reason for putting a steam locomotive out in a spurious livery.

We've had variations on "it's all about the mechanical restoration" and "it's only a coat of paint" through to "you have to make compromises".

I absolutely understand 100% you have to make some compromises for mainline running. Hence the slimmed down cylinders, cabs, boiler fittings and chimneys we see on mainline steam locomotives, together with additional systems like TPWS and AWS. I accept all of those because the aim is to run on the mainline.

We talk about being realistic about the costs of putting steam locomotives on the mainline - well the paint job is an absolutely tiny fraction of the total cost to overhaul. If you're spending so much money on the overhaul, why can the job not be done to the highest standards with a paint job to match? Particularly when , even for the sake of a few hundred pounds more, it can be done to the highest standards possible and last a lifetime (Rood Ashton Hall cited).

Owner's prerogative has come into it a number of times too and I wonder if we're talking about owners who actually have respect for the history of their machines. Bill Parker put his J52 into GNR livery when he bought it, Alan Pegler put 4472 into apple green and restored the single chimney, those in charge of the Duchess put it in LMS livery and there's a number of excellently turned out GWR locomotives at Tysley and elsewhere.

I cannot for the life of me see how anyone could state LMS crimson lake, or a later livery, are not commercially viable when they have been worn previously and well worn previously by other locomotives working on the mainline.

To me it's starting to look and sound like sheer bloody mindedness on the behalf of a few people who for some reason feel it necessary to invent a livery. The corporate branding exercise cited sounds ridiculous too.

 

You still can travel behind a Bluebell loco (323) in "house livery" and once the K&ESR completes the overhaul of one of its Austerities, you'll be able to do the same there too In fact, I believe that 30072's new owner is talking of painting it up in K&WVR "house livery" - yes, even the silver smokebox - to commemorate the line's 50th anniversary.

 

May sound ridiculous to you but it's happened in other heritage spheres and nearly happened to 34081. We were offered a deal some years into the 25 years long wait to get her steaming again. In return for painting her blue, we were offered funding to finish the overhaul to main line standards and as part of the deal operate her on the main line for an agreed period before reverting to the colour of our choice. At the end of the day it wasn't the colour that put us off, although there were those who were against it, but that as a very small group we felt we didn't have sufficient manpower to support main line operations and therefore could not guarantee keeping that part of the bargain.
As for calling into question if owners have respect for the history of their charges, whilst those who have painted them in a non standard colour may be in the minority, they've had enough respect to save the loco in the first place and then spend a vast amount of money restoring it to working order. Perhaps you'd like to contact these people and call into question their motives.

 

Reminds me of someone who allegedly offered the 6201 guys money to put her into BR green as this would "bring more work for the loco." Now forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't think 6201 has ever been short of work as an LMS painted loco.

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Then it's down to the railway to explain to Joe, it's part of the duty of a museum

 

I think it was charter work they were thinking of during the last 3 years of its boiler certificate.

 

There was an interview with a senior boss at the GCR in a magazine a year or so ago where he suggested that there was a commercial dimension to painting locos which would 'authentically' be painted black in other colours to bring in more families. I go with the view that if someone is willing to put huge amounts of money and time into keeping a loco going then they can paint it whatever colour they want. And of course many of them have owned their engines far longer than BR did.

 

You could well be right but whilst charters do raise money, it's but a small percentage of the overall cost of an overhaul so I suppose it depends on how desperate an owner is for funds.

 

I think it was Geoff Silcock who offered to organise funding to repaint it but they weren't interested but others have been and quite a few recreations have been done. Some owning groups haven't lost sight of what it is all about.

 

It's the lines they operate on I was refering to, many years ago I rememeber travelling on a Welsh Marches with 6000 up front , the tour leaflet gave a potted history of the engine including how it was presented in its final form with double chimney