6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

You mean some owning groups are more mercenary than others. And whilst I would have liked to see 46201 in green, I wouldn't dream of criticising the owning group for saying "no" and that IMO isn't losing sight of what it's all about.

 

I don't think there has been any mention of 80135 in this discussion. However, it has been in BR green for its entire 'preserved' life (35 years, far longer than in BR black) and I don't think that anyone now considers it to be wrong. It was originally the owners choice but is now NYMR owned and I can't see it being out-shopped after its present overhaul in anything but green. It looks good in this livery, as well (IMHO.)

 

Or, I suspect, to see how much froth would be generated as a result? No such thing as bad publicity! I expect every kid that has travelled behind it on the main line was absolutely thrilled to see a 'big red engine like James.'

I have told the following tale on this forum before (so forgive the repeat). One cold evening I was helping Peter Beet paint 45407 in Furness Red at Steamtown. I asked him why the colour had been chosen and he said "free publicity John...the purists will go mad, but it'll bring people through the gate and put more nips (his pet name for 'new pence') in the pot. " For the record...I thought it looked awful, but the reaction was as PB predicted!

 

Odd that PBs own black 5 44871 retained BR black though ..... White vac hoses though.
While 44932 went fully lined green and looked superb IMHO.

 

I still think it's wrong because it is!

 

Initially it didn't have a tender crest though (not allowed). As part of the Steamtown collection she was always labelled as 'the last BR locomotive to be in steam .' In the summer of 1971, BR asked that it be exhibited in light steam at a 'rail fair' in Morecambe Promenade station. That required a repaint, the crest went on the tender and she was towed by a diesel down to Morecambe . The following summer 44932 and 6441 went to Morecambe for exhibition under their own power. In September, we took two '5's to Barrow (44932 and 44871) on passenger trains....steam was back in the North-West and I heard no-one complain about the green 'five' on the day!

 

That's interesting - and for the record, I wouldn't have called into account your motives if you had said yes to that, as it's reasonable where a donation is concerned to perhaps do so to satisfy a whim. End result: everyone wins because eventually loco in question goes into correct livery after all, and in working order.

You have to question the motives if it produces a livery that never happened, surely? What other reason is there? Come on now. You buy a steam locomotive, you choose to restore it. Everyone uses that term. Restoration can be about compromises, we're all agreed - but why go the expense of restoring a steam locomotive to a high standard mechanically only to put it in a livery it never wore and never would have worn?

I mean it's pretty much established - whichever side of the debate that you're on - that the livery, in commercial terms, "doesn't matter". So if it ultimately doesn't matter, why paint it wrong? Paint it right and you satisfy enthusiasts who do care and those who don't - the general public, as you yourself suggested - are none the wiser. Thereby satisfying everyone.

I get and fully understand the points being made. I appreciate that it's on a case by case basis to an extent. But that's where the green 9F got it right and Galatea got it wrong (for me).

There was, prior to Galatea's return to traffic, an air of excitement and expectation. Something magical was going to happen - a true no hoper was going to make the comeback of all comebacks. Those who remembered her in BR green could envisage that livery being used one day, there were those who imaged her and Leander in matching liveries on the mainline. Imagine that - matching LMS crimson lake Jubilees on the mainline. Such a thing has not happened since LMS days!

The result was strange. A beautiful locomotive, well overhauled, in an odd livery that wasn't historical and wasn't accurate for what it was sort of trying to suggest (that the BR red applied to the Duchesses late on could have been applied to the Jubilees). Two years down the line from her first appearance, I suppose enthusiasts were sort of expecting her to be fully restored to one or the other livery. That hasn't happened. Why? Who knows.

If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Why spoil the ship for a ha'poth of tar, and all that.

I'm not even an LMS fan and my sympathies for those who were expecting an LMS crimson lake Jubilee on the mainline are boundless. I've been lucky as an LNER man - aside from the double chimneys (necessary for best performances possible), Bittern, SNG and UoSA have all been in pretty much bob on recreations of past liveries. Tornado's produced all of the livery variations for the most part. The K1 and K4 are both in accurate liveries too and the B1 - despite the nameplates - looks utterly sublime in her original, accurate livery.

It's such a shame not to see something as good as this out there:

 

As this thread goes around and around, it's clear that those who hold strong views on either side of the argument cannot be persuaded to see the other point of view. Result?....just agree to disagree?

 

That's sensible I think. Happy to do so.

 

Did the green 5 from Carnforth to Leeds back in the 70s. She was a last minute substitute for 4771 as that had failed with a clinkered fire. Nobody complained about the colour that day either.

 

Can't argue with that: I stopped a few days back as the same points with the same counters have been made, sometimes several times. It has all been aired - yet again - and until the next time.

 

Numerous times! 'The Shed' was just one big happy family...how I miss those days.

 

44932 at Carnforth, 1979........

 

This is even arguable - if the general public don't care about the livery then it doesn't matter commercially, but to the enthusiast it does so the correct livery would surely be more commercially successful..?

 

Perhaps nobody complained to you, but surely someone on board may have wondered why there was a green black 5 up front...

 

One wonders what Swindon would have done with the batch of Standard 4 2-6-4 tanks that arrived on the Western Region from the LTSR in 1962, had the transfer occurred a few years earlier.

 

Train full of gricers, heads out of every window listening to a Black 5 lifting 14 out of Carnforth - I doubt anyone cared one iota about the colour of the loco.

 

Converted them to inside motion probably ...

Tom

 

A fair bet some would have been turned out green like several 82xxx and some 78xxx. Don't think any 84xxx tanks got greened, did they?

 

I suspect the thrill of this certainly overshadowed the incorrect livery, but equally I doubt nobody wondered why green and not black...