6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

Wait a moment, I read everything and their are people here who agree with you. I do find it offensive at times when people say "it is just a coat of paint". That doesn't take any history into account. Yes it is the owner or groups decision on how they want their locomotive painted. It is nice though when one can "like" what that individual or group of people have decided to do.

I think many would not respect my opinion but I love many of the pre-grouping paint schemes. However, when you have something like Britannia loco like 70000 in BR passenger colors. I think that is right because they are 1950 heritage and that is how they would have appeared back in their day.

 

I have to agree, and indeed stopped posting on the matter some while ago. A point would be made, a response given which would go unmet, then a few pages later the same point would be repeated. I decided some people were simply doing a cut and paste job on earlier posts, the ones they liked, anyway.

 

The thing I've found irritating in the discussion is the labelling of other people's viewpoints as excuses. They are reasons, end of. You may not agree with their reasons, I'm fine with that, but it doesn't seem helpful to just disparage them.

The GWS used to have Great Western painted on the side of 1466. Current policy is that she will not run again with such an inauthentic livery*. Well OK. But if I wanted to present a full scale image of a Great Western branchline, but in 1920 with a maroon coach, then the exact kit I want to paint that scene isn't available. But if 1466 /4866 was running with 1466 on her number plate and Great Western on her tank sides then that's the closest approximation to a 517 class you are going to get**, and couple her up with autotrailer 92 and you have something that is as close to that scene as anyone will ever see. Inauthentic? Sure, the cab on the 4800 is wrong for a 517, not to mention other details, but as an evocation of that scene its a damn sight more authentic than 1466 in BR black would be, or even 4866 and a roundel... If I set that scene up for a film I think there would be few complaints, but why would it somehow be worse to set that scene up for a season or two?

Personally I would rather see that train with the engine in an inauthentic pre 1934 livery and the coach in an authentic pre 1920 livery than I would like see the train with the coach in pre 1920 livery and the locomotive in post 1948 livery. To me that's far worse. OK, so perhaps I'm in a tiny minority seeing it like that, and you disagree with me. That's fine, but don't tell me I'm making excuses for spoiling things.

*Great Western spelt out in full wasn't used after 1934, and 4866 was built in 1936.

**for those who don't know, the first 1466 was a 517 class 0-4-2T built 1883 and scrapped 1935. In their later days many 517s looked substantially similar to a 4800 with a narrower cab. Here's a photo of the first 1466. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1692.htm

[some dates corrected from original version of this post]

 

Aesthetics is an entirely subjective issue.
Some people want to make their aesthetic preferences seem somehow mandatory, so they claim their preferred livery is "authentic" somehow.
Anyone going to say that they believe a certain loco "must" be painted in a livery they personally think is horrible because it is "historically accurate"?
As this discussion has shown, different bits of authenticity matter to different people - loco livery, loco and train combination, loco/train/station, loco and location, loco and scenery, types of workings, station amenities, trackside equipment...
And a lot depend on whether you are trying to take photos which look historic, or just enjoying the experience in other ways (for me it is all about the sound and smell!)
As an aside, modern (colour) photos never look like ones from the 1950s or earlier because the cameras are too "good". I really love early colour photos (pre-war) because they have fantastic atmosphere. Nothing taken now has the same feel at all - no matter how "accurate" the loco livery.

 

True about the aesthetics. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with a loco in pre nationalisation livery hauling Mark 1 coaches, in BR livery(obviously!) another look I quite like and is authentic for the late steam period is a mix of maroon and blue grey stock, maybe with a mark 2 added.

 

I don't know where you've got the 1928 cut-off from...

The full 'Great Western' branding ran from c.1903 (when the twiddly scroll was discontinued) right through to to it being superseded by the roundel in July 1934 (date on drawing 103716A). Here's a works photo of 4800 carrying the full branding:—

© SSPL. A cropped version of the same photo appears in Jim Russell's Big Book Of All Engines & That (Fig 524).

At some point there was a change from gilt letters to the more familiar yellow – possibly c.1930 but I'd be interested in knowing the exact date.

4866 was built in 1936, so would have been outshopped with the roundel, but it's pretty much restricted to 1466/9" 'GWR'/BR(W) unless the top feed is removed - depending on the exact date that top feed was fitted it **might** get away with 4866/shirtbutton.

My own preference is to go for the oldest historically accurate livery a vehicle can carry & to hell with whoever's feathers get ruffled (W231), with the caveat that compromises may have to be made. Three f'rinstances...

1:— I was asked by the Flour Mill to letter 4612 when it was first restored. The paymasters' instructions were for 5" Great Western, so that's what he got. It was wrong, but did look nice. I was asked back when it was last overhauled & this time around it got the correct 9" GWR (which was interesting to space out on a tank with no weld lines) which I was a lot happier with.

2:— 9002's interior dates from the early 1950s so strictly speaking it ought to wear BR(W) livery. When its restoration was nearing completion, this was discussed & it was felt that putting it into full 1940 GW livery presented the better marketing option as it was intended to hire the vehicle for private parties etc.

3:— 4079's tender is currently sporting the full Great Western c.1930 livery with **all** the lining. However... it was built during WW2, so was probably outshopped in plain green with the roundel.

Both 9002 & 4079's tender are 'Wrong' for a given value of 'Wrong'. Not aware of anyone frothing at the bit over them though.

Pete S.,
C&W Dept.,
GWS Didcot.

 

I used the word excuses a few posts back, apologies if it came across a bit strong, perhaps 'tenuous links' would have been more appropriate...?

 

Carelessness.
I thought, better just check the dates, picked that big, clumsy but essential copy of GWW off the bookshelf, and the first livery date change I saw as I very quickly scanned the text where I opened it was 1928. Didn't scan enough to realise that 1928 was only the date of a change in perceived paint colour of the green (due to differences in painting technique rather than the actual formulation of the paint). Have changed the OP for accuracy, but it doesn't really change the point. Remember thinking, "gosh, as early as that?", but didn't engage brain enough to go a bit further and read the whole paragraph.

 

You see the examples above of the Great Western locomotives in various livery combinations is absolutely fine by me. I understand the compromises there and I think it's reasonable - given how tenders were swapped around - that sometimes we're going to get a tender in a livery it may have never carried, but other tenders of the same type did.

All of the liveries named above were liveries that were actually applied to those engines during their working lifetimes.

My sole point of contention is putting a locomotive into a livery it could never have worn, which is very different to the examples given above. So it's a case of Galatea, the red 8F, Royal Scot as rebuilt in red, as opposed all of the above as the liveries are still accurate and reasonably what they would have worn at some point in their working lives.

And for the record, I agree with the idea that the oldest historical liveries should be worn where reasonably possible - and think on this: the NNR has restored their Y14 into its earliest form and isn't that just beautifully authentic? For me, one of the best restoration projects we've seen for some time.

 

I like 1466 above with the Great Western lettering, I think it looks fine.

 

Although still slightly wrong it should then bear the number 4866

 

I'm sure the GWS will be quite happy for you to sponsor the new number plates.

 

Already got 'em:—


(Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hugh_llewelyn_4866_(6825264555).jpg )

Plates are currently in store as it got painted black & reverted to 1466 a while ago as part of a photo charter.

P.

 

Some things can be slightly wrong but look fine, the GWR locos discussed for example. Some things are wrong and look wrong, the red 8F springs immediately to mind. 45699 is sort of OK I suppose as Jubilees were red in LMS days and, just after nationalisation some locos were renumbered by BR before being repainted.

I think industrials in false main line identity look fine too, one thing which I do think looks wrong though are BR Mark 2 coaches in anything other than blue/grey. I know a few were maroon and green on the Southern, but only for a very short time.

 

Now that the red 8F is a black 8F, perhaps that particular gripe can be done away with. How can a Mk.2 in an authentic green or maroon livery look wrong? Short lived they may have been but no more short lived that some loco liveries such as early post nationalisation BR blue or post war LMS black. Do they look wrong too?

 

This is where history gets distorted, no Jubilees got through to BR days in red, they were all either wartime black or 1946 lined black and they certainly wouldn't have had the later BR totem as carried by 45699. In any case the shade of red is no where near correct.

 

Although I hasten to add that Galatea's livery appears to be a variation on that actually worn by some of the Duchesses and Princesses at the end of their working lives - but as observed, the shade appears rather off.

 

No, they don't look wrong, although I am not personally keen on the post war LMS lined black. The thing with the mark 2 coaches is that they were in blue/grey for a long time and this seemed to suit them best

 

Fair enough and I'll agree that Mk.2 stock isn't usually associated with pre blue and grey era.

 

All sorts of things can distort history, if you get used to seeing something wrong for long enough it seems to become correct, laugh at me for this if you want, but I used to think, for a while, that mark 1 BGs were the same length as the other ones, because, wait for it, Triang's model was the same.....

It was only when I saw one next to a TSO at Bury in the shed that it became obvious...