6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

As far as I know the policy of the A1 Locomotive Group was to let it run in all of the liveries it would have carried had it been built immediately after 60162 so it was logical to start with the first and progress in chronological order which is exactly what happened.

 

The paint was whatever came out of the mix. There was a 'formula' but no computer or other careful control to ensure consistency back then. I believe that the various works also had an official painted and lined template as an aid to consistency but there was some variation in reality. I think that the main difference between Doncaster and Darlington was the colour of the cylinders; black at Doncaster, green at Darlington.

 

'Saxony Green' was the term applied to N.E.R. green. I did some research into it a couple of years ago and the Ken Hoole Trust came up with an original N.E.R. colour and lining template from Darlington Works. This is kept in darkness to avoid fade. I compared it with the various preserved N.E.R. locos and none match the Darlington Template and with variations between individual locos. Williamson's scanned the template and I had a batch made up. This exactly matched the Template and is now in Willamson's catalogue as Saxony Green. I don't know whether Darlington perpetuated this shade on L.N.E.R. locos but it is quite different from other versions of L.N.E.R. green carried by preserved locos (and Tornado when it was in that livery.)

 

As an aside to the above, part of my appentiship was with a chap who was the paint and camouflage expert during the war on HMS Renown. He regailed me of a story when he produced many gallons of paint for a ship repaint. When completed there were signals from other ships in the squadron that the colour was wrong.
Quick as a flash he painted his sample swatch with the colour he had produced and after drying it on a heater he took it up to the skipper. Obviously it was a perfect match to his paint so the rest of the squadron had to paint ship to match the Renown.

 

It wouldn't be quite like that. I did colour matching in the plastics industry in the 70s and we still did colour matching by eye then. Sure the basic ingredients went in the mixing pot according to the formula, but the end tone always varied, so you'd always finish off by hand. The way we did it was that a little master pot of each product was kept in the lab next to the mixing shop, and you'd put a tiny dab of both the new batch and the master on a piece of tin plate and cook it in an oven (these were plastics that heat cured in a very few minutes) to check the match. With experience you got very very close indeed. I don't suppose it was any different in the first half of the century.

 

Livery froth always reminds me of the bit in The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy:

Chairman:
Yes, and, and, and the wheel. What about this wheel thingy? Sounds a terribly interesting project to me.

Marketing Girl:
Er, yeah, well we’re having a little, er, difficulty here…

Ford Prefect:
Difficulty?! It’s the single simplest machine in the entire universe!

Marketing Girl:
Well alright mister wise guy, if you’re so clever you tell us what colour it should be!

 

Indeed they did - and it's all a matter of personal choice which one you think suits it best.
Always remembering that it's the opinion of those whose time, skill, effort and money that keeps it on the main line that counts most, for what it's worth I think it looked best in BR blue .

 

The apple green paint applied to Tornado, when new, was mixed by Williamsons in accordance with their analysis of a tin of the original Doncaster paint in the late Malcolm Crawley's possession at the time and I assume the latest repaint uses exactly the same mix.

 

Surely the exact appearance to the eye also depends on the undercoat used at the means of application, i.e. number of coats etc.? So two surfaces painted with paint out of the same tin might vary depending on what lies underneath.

Tom

 

I don't know but, in my experience, greens cover almost anything underneath with no effect but reds are more translucent and are affected by what's underneath, certainly on a first coat. Perhaps it's just my painting, though.

 

A lot of that is how I understand it, although Ive not been fortunate enough to see the genuine example thats kept under wraps. I was under the impression that Darlington kept outshopping some engines in the Darlington green shade, and think that Morayshire has tried to emulate this in preservation. I've done a model L1 into Darlington green which does look resplendent to say the least, while also doing an A1 and A2 into apple green, albeit with late crest lining and appearance. I'm thinking this are for the paintshop and more NER green will come. Will post pictures if anyone else is interested.

As for Tornado, yes I believe there was a promise for all liveries to be covered, but the covenentors wanted BR green first, where as they went in a cronological order. I can see the merits of both, but understand apple green was chosen given the Scotsman public understanding and connection.

Have to admit som engines suit certain colours, but the Western might still think Mid tone engine green is correct for Brunswick green, or is that another tangent on the whole paint issue....

 

Not only that but since what we all see is the wavelength of reflected light the perception of colour will vary with the time of day (colour temperature being closer to the red end of the spectrum when the sun is closest to the horizon), the ambient light level, light source ( daylight or artificial ) and dare I say it the condition of your own eyes !

So many variables !

 

Quite.
But no need to worry about all this uncertainty - some people not NP are infallible when it comes to livery. Just ask them. No matter what time of day or lighting or photo. And everything apart from BR green is just wrong anyway....
The few older colour photos which we do have from pre-war do show nicely how, for example, LMS red livery was VERY variable in terms of shade as reproduced in photos (film type/light angle/time of day/cleanliness being just some of the factors). Likewise GWR green for some reason. Meanwhile SR olive and malachite greens, and LNER 'apple' green (or whatever our in-house pedants insist we call it) seems to have been fairly consistent as captured.
Have a look at some of the books produced with ColourRail e.g. Big Four in Colour and LNER Locomotives in Colour. Well worth a read anyway.

 

More likely individual pigments. No one ever accused red oxide of not covering well!

 

[QUOTE="The Black Hat,

As for Tornado, ....................I can see the merits of both, but understand apple green was chosen given the Scotsman public understanding and connection.

....[/QUOTE]
Definitely not so. Apple green was chosen at the request of the late Dorothy Mather, Arthur Peppercorn's widow, and the late Wreford Voge who was a trustee at the time. Both remember the A1's being turned out in Apple Green. Sadly, Wreford passed away before seeing the locomotive in the "flesh" but I believe he saw photographs.

 

I'm going to throw a wildcard here and I know it won't be popular. Bittern is under overhaul at the moment, so when she returns we don't know what colour she could go. LNER Garter Blue as 4464 or BR Green as 60019. However I would like to see Apple Green, I know she never carried it but none of the locos that did survived. She is logically the only one who could realistically carry it. As the only ones which did all had bird names, I doubt it would happen but it would be nice to see an A4 in this livery as it's nearly been 80 years since one was seen. Just imagine if Kingfisher had also been saved, she would have been a perfect candidate for Apple Green as she did carry that livery.

 

Lining over the firebox means it must have been overhauled at Darlington

 

Have to admit som engines suit certain colours, but the Western might still think Mid tone engine green is correct for Brunswick green, or is that another tangent on the whole paint issue....[/QUOTE]

What on earth is "mid tone green"? The GWR always quite clearly quoted their green as middle chrome green. Back in time this colour, along with light and dark chrome green could be found in British Standard BS381 as definite and distinct colours, as indeed could light, medium, and deep Brunswick Green. But if nothing else. we can infer from this that our national standard on paint colours recognised them as different colours. Many of these colours have been deleted from the standard as obsolete over the last 50 or 60 years. A copy of a quite old reference book on paint making quite clearly shows that whilst both Chrome and Brunswick green are based on mixing Prussian Blue with yellow, the difference comes from the fact that one used Chrome yellow and the other used Lemon Chrome, hence the greater blueness of Brunswick green. Light, medium and dark tones come from the difference in the balance of the colours in the mix. If you want to see true medium Brunswick Green have a look at Butler Henderson, or dare I say the tender for our uncompleted Bloomer which we did some years ago. One thing will become obvious - Great Western Green it ain't!

Amongst many other greens there is also Bronze green which again used to come in light, medium and deep shades and the latter, Deep Bronze Green (BS 381C colour 224) appears to more or less be something of a match with the later BR diesel green. If you were to consult thbe BR specification for paint, spec number 30 you will see that this colour is simply referred to as colour number 30 "locomotive green".

As with all things modern, H&S appears to have required the deletion of lead and other pigments, which are considered dangerous if you allow your child to suck them, and this has made it more and more difficult (despite computer matching) to replicate historical colours - or so I am told by paint manufacturers. One thing is certain, those of us who have closeley examined the green used by the GWR have never managed to confuse it with a colour called Mid tone green,or for that matter Brunswick green. Perhaps you would care to tell us what the colour reference number for this mythical Mid tone green is please?

Regards
Bob

 

Rather handsome actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_kingfisher