6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

Am I the only one who is surprised 45699 hasn't been turned out with the 'West coast' logo on the tender?

 

The diesel fleet and the rolling stock is for the most part West Coast branded so it would not be illogical for the steam fleet to follow suit if the owner so desired.
I think you'd be hard pushed to claim that WC's operations are those of a "working museum".

 

Isn't this debate a lot to do with the perceived level of respect for the history of said loco?
In any case don't the majority have enough 'authentic' liveries to choose from without resorting to something else?

 

I've often read & heard said that Joe Public doesn't care what kind of steam loco heads their train as long as it is a steam loco. If that's the case then surely a coat of perceived incorrect paint is going matter not one bit!!
Admittedly it gets enthusiasts all hot & bothered as shown by the previous 9 pages but if you are catering for the Joe Public masses & they are the majority of paying passengers, then aren't these are the people you should be primarily trying to please. If that means a steam loco is provided, but at the expense of a non authentic livery or a commercially more attractive one, then one could argue so what, it's about priorities & is better than having no steam loco at all.
On a different tack re liveries…………… I am quite happy to see one loco carry a number of liveries authentic or otherwise for that loco, especially if it means generating more income for its owners.
If an engine is painted in a livery it has not carried it before & it generates people to revisit a railway, book on another mainline tour or generate a raft of photo charters as a result then why not?
Similarly if more interest & income is generated as a result of a newly overhauled loco for example, temporarily left plain black with temporary BR numbers/crest before elaborate lining out in to pre BR livery then again why not?
A bit of a reality reminder for some posters on here that for these loco's to run, in a lot of cases they have to generate income. If these means being painted the historically wrong colour then tough, get over it & join the real world of harsh financial reality.
Galatea has hauled umpteen Fellsman tours, all sold out. Didn't bother those punters did it. Looking at the amount of photos of it in the various mags, it didn't deter a lot of photographers either. It's not like everyone hasn't had the opportunity to see & ride on a green Jubilee with Bahamas & Kolhapur either…..

 

You still haven't explained why the non-authentic livery is necessary to entice Joe Public if it's "going to matter not one bit"!

 

It's not necessary at all goes back to my previous post about education. Joe Public do not need to be patronized this way. My example of the GC diner train is a good example. As for changing liveries the A1 people have got it right, during its boiler certificate , let the loco run in examples of all possible liveries an A1 could have carried.

 

If you're of a certain age you won't have been able to ride behind either of those locomotives.

In any event, you're missing the point. You're saying the paint scheme doesn't matter. Okay then, let's go with that. The paint job doesn't matter.

So if it doesn't matter, why deliberately get it wrong? Why is it so much effort to get something right when it doesn't matter? It costs probably about the same to paint it in an authentic livery as it does a false one. So why - if it doesn't matter - can it not be be done right?

More and more to me it looks like sheer bloody mindedness and an inability to recognise one's charges have history. I do not and will not understand painting a false BR red livery when you can have the real - and superior - LMS crimson lake. One of these liveries is more handsome and probably - if we are going to go down the commercial route - more attractive to selling the idea of a railtour to the general public. I know which I'd bet on to do better!

For the record, Tornado's livery changes were spot on for timing IMO. However - and in particular on the apple green livery - I dislike the use of the rimmed chimney and the numberplate across the top strap. Particularly when all of the A1s had high numberplates and stovepipe chimneys when built. It makes a subtle but noticeable change to the front end. I'd like to see it once just for the sake of recreating the past just that little bit more. Curly 6s would be nice too

 

I must say, you livery purist chaps who then enthuse about Tornado make no sense.
If a loco's history is only in so-called revenue-earning service (by which you mean pre-68) then 60163 hasn't got any. So they could paint it any colour at all (crimson lake would be my choice). And you certainly shouldn't complain about little detail differences with what you presumably think were the 'real' A1s, as Tornado has loads of deliberate design differences.
I would respect your arguments more if you would admit that really you just like BR liveries for nostalgic and/or aesthetic reasons (both entirely subjective). Fine! But don't pretend there is some law of preservation supporting you.
Unless someone out there is going to say that personally they think BR green is nasty but Royal Scot (or whatever) would be forced to wear it for reasons of authenticity.
And as for the historical reenactment "we are misleading the public by this livery" argument - name me one line where passengers will be guaranteed a historically correct train (loco and stock) in matching liveries and matching the stations and lineside, with historic timetabling (including goods) and then I will listen to that line of reasoning...

 

The livery doesn't matter to Joe Public, but it does matter to the enthusiast. And it's the enthusiast who ultimately keeps steam going, whether by volunteering or through a legacy in their will.

The directors of a railway I used to volunteer on (and loved doing so) were adamant that as long as smoke came out of the chimney the public would love it. They were right. But, the railway struggled for volunteers - if it had recreated the experience better, would more have volunteered? I think they would.

 

Tornado is a special case. You need to redefine the rulebook for authentic liveries because - as you correctly observed - Tornado doesn't have a history like the original A1s. You could say Tornado herself is representative of the originals, thereby carrying all of the liveries is representative of history. Hence the next in sequence number.

Also, I was arguing against the fake British Railways livery and for the real crimson lake LMS livery.

Preservation should be exactly what it says on the tin: "preserving", and liveries are part of the whole history of a locomotive and as such should also be considered as important.

Nobody is saying everything has to be perfect - I hope everyone would agree where practical we should be preservationists and not creationists in terms of showing history as it was in the most practicable way and not inventing it.

Which brings me to a case in point. Galatea is in an inauthentic livery. Recently the Talyllyn railway recreated as closely as possible, the liveries their no.1 and no.2 would have worn when delivered. The livery and the forms were as near as practically possible for the modern era. And the crowds loved them.





I personally see the above as the highlight of my year so far, much further ahead than any of the mainline returnees. The railway studied books, photographs and researched long and hard to get this livery done right, and Heritage Painting did an incredible job thereafter. The crowds which turned up at the Talyllyn for their 150th anniversary celebrations were not just coming for no.1 and no.2 of course. But the liveries were important and they looked the part. At the end of the day, they did something Galatea hasn't done. Recreating a full flavour of the past in the modern day.

 

The Talyllyn Railway, though the slate quarries have gone, must come close with their vintage train behind no.1 or no.2.

 

I think if Joe Public took trouble to read the publicity material he would understand the concept of what the A1 Trust is trying to do. And it's four liveries if you count the works grey

 

A bit of an over-reading, there, I think, Andrew. As a peronal choice, I would usually go for a pre-nationalisation or pre-Grouping livery if suitable; I have no preferrence for BR colours. Quite the opposite, in fact. But it's there and available and I do not object to a loco so - correctly - liveried.

I do believe that there is an excessive use of BR livery at the expense of earlier schemes and would prefer a bit more balance. As to 6100, no Scot ever appeared in LMS red (6100'2 'restoration' excluded). If a Scot is did wear LMS livery, it would have been black, with or without the maroon / straw lining, as worn for a time by 6115. But 6100 was converted in BR days and always carried BR green in taper boiler form so, from a 'purist's' viewpoint, there is little in the way of options: early crest or late crest on the tender pretty much covers it.

The issue of variation in liveries is certainly valid, but I would suggest that many historic varieties are being ignored in favour of non-genuine ones, and often less colourful ones. There are two locos operating rom Carnforth which could correctly wear Crimson Lake. One is painted red but in a wrong format, while the other is black. Red or green were options, so why black? Meanwhile engines which should be black are - or have been - red, green and blue. Alternatively, when the Great Central 'Director' , complete in pre-Grouping and attractive colours, went to that railway many years ago, one of the first things enthusiasts did was to paint it BR black. I couldn't understand it then and still can't, but colour variety does not appear to be major consideration in making choices.

 

But not when they turned out one of their locos in BR black as a "what if?" exercise.

 

Can't see any objection to 6100 in 1946 black as a typical rendition of the class at that time although only 6115 appeared in that livery with smoke deflectors

 

Read the rest of the paragraph. The TR is not remotely like it was pre-preservation (thank goodness, it was in a dreadful state). Most trains do not use original locos and stock, most stations are unrecognizable. And by the way, I absolutely adore it, it is utterly brilliant!

 

You still haven't explained why the non-authentic livery is necessary

I'm not saying it is necessary, I'm saying Joe Public is not that bothered if it is the authentic one or not.

So if it doesn't matter, why deliberately get it wrong?

Simply owners prerogative. Their property to do with as they see fit, there is no obligation what so ever to be 'historically correct'.

And as for the historical re-enactment "we are misleading the public by this livery" argument - name me one line where passengers will be guaranteed a historically correct train (loco and stock) in matching liveries and matching the stations and lineside, with historic timetabling (including goods) and then I will listen to that line of reasoning...

.........but as long as it's got a name plate that says Flying Scotsman then the rest are content..........

Spot on Andrew & Ralph.

The livery doesn't matter to Joe Public, but it does matter to the enthusiast. And it's the enthusiast who ultimately keeps steam going, whether by volunteering or through a legacy in their will.

I agree it really does matter to enthusiasts but don't agree its enthusiasts who ultimately keep steam going, its Joe Public who visits & travels that keep steam going IMO.

 

Personally, being born post 1968 I enjoy seeing engines in different liveries, even if they aren't technically correct to that engine. Sorry, but I'd rather have an engine working in any colour than correct and in a museum. we are very lucky to have the steam movement that we do and I feel people just don't fully appreciate what we have.
Interestingly, I'm very much looking forward to the publics reaction to firstly a black 103 and then a dark green 60103. My feeling is there are going to be a lot of puzzled people with a call for 4472 apple green sooner rather than later!
Here's to another 9 pages!