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6619

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Muppet, May 15, 2011.

  1. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Isn't it actually a tendency to resist acceleration rather than motion? (ie Inertia)
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Yes, but I was trying to keep it simple. It's complicated enough, as it is.
     
  3. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    According some geeza called Newton, it will only run to one end of the boiler when the loco is accelerating/decelerating. At constant speed, it will stay level.

    Richard
     
  4. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Yes ... the point I was trying to make. Incidentally I don't think that there is actually any such thing as deceleration ... its acceleration opposite to the direction of travel :D
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As this has gone way off topic on 6619 but is an interesting discussion (to me, anyway) I've opened a thread in the MIC section where I've tried to explain more fully what I'm saying (and agree with Mr Newton!)
     
  6. Seagull

    Seagull Member

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    Although people tend to thjink of the K&ESR as a railway where locos point uphill to Tenterden, we have quite often had locos facing down the hill. 32670, 32650, P class 753, USA DS238, Wilbert, No25. 80072 and Bellerophon all spring to mind! All locos are capable of working in either direction, any half decent engineman should be able to cope whichever way round they are! Probably the hardest part is finding water stop marks when driving from the opposite side.

    As for water lift when the regulator is opened, surely it lifts about as much whatever the direction of travel is? It's more likely that the regulater opening coincides with water flowing forward as a gradient is reached giving a false impression that it hasn't moved.

    I must admit I do like the way the water level comes back nicely as you go over the summit though!
     
  7. SE&CR_red_snow

    SE&CR_red_snow New Member

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    You mean you've never actually watched it to find out? :eek:

    My personal experience is of regulator lift of anything up to half a glass going chimney-first on the flat, but no noticeable difference at all going backwards.

    Working hard chimney first up a gradient makes life difficult if the optimal running position (ready for shutting off at the crest) is with the water level sitting artificially above the top of the glass thanks to the gradient and regulator lift. Once it's up out of sight, it's hard to tell HOW far up it is, and therefore how close you are to priming. The margin between the two can be quite small and it's hard to tell the difference between two different levels when you can't see either of them.
     
  8. Seagull

    Seagull Member

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    The amount of lift is a combination of how much the regulator is open and the gradient. My point is that when running bunker/tender first on a gradient the water would drop to a lower level if not for the regulator lifting it, therefore it appears not to have altered much. The reverse happens when running chimney first so therefore the lack of lift running in back gear is an illusion. I can't say I've ever noticed much difference running on the flat, it still lifts on miost locos.

    I think that after over 40 years of driving and firing locos (on railways with proper hills including KESR and NYMR) I might have noticed something about how water lifts!! Obviously I don't have the flat railway experience of a Bluebell man!!!! :)
     
  9. SE&CR_red_snow

    SE&CR_red_snow New Member

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    Well you did ask the question, old chap!!

    We're talking in parallel with another thread set up to discuss this issue alone, rather than 6619, but hey ho, I like tangents! I am not convinced that, on the flat, opening the regulator really does change the water level in the gauge glasses when running tender / bunker first to any noticeable extent. If there is any rise or fall it is miniscule compared to the rise when going chimney first. It's interesting that of the two people who have suggested otherwise, one is from Foxfield and one from the K&ESR / NYMR:- none of these are railways associated with a great deal of level track. [Incidentally neither is the Bluebell, but the Churnet Valley fits the bill quite nicely!] Just to add to the fun I'm pretty sure one of you is suggesting that, when opening the regulator, the level rises when travelling bunker first, while the other is suggesting that it falls. Let's take an average on that, shall we?

    If we assume that the main cause is steam being drawn into the main steampipe through the regulator in the dome, and drawing the water towards it, then we're attempting to examine one end of a see-saw without being able to see the other end. Chimney first, the water rises at the firebox end, but what does it do at the smokebox end? Because whatever it does there is roughly what we'd expect to see at the firebox end when travelling the other way round.

    Just to complicate things further, does the volume of water at either end of the boiler make any difference? Only there's normally a lot more water capacity in the boiler at the firebox end. Our half-visible see-saw, then, is also unbalanced.

    Yes, and it does, because the latter doesn't happen. You can watch the level come back up as the gradient levels out, even if the Driver shuts off at the same time. As an example we had an unscheduled stop at Horsted Keynes the other day on a dining train (normally a through run). We already knew the timetable was up the wall and we'd have to stop, but no-one knew for how long, so I covered all bases by having a good fire but the water level on the E4, running bunker first, down to about 1/4 glass on the 1-in-75 coming in, so we could control it whilst sitting in the station. Coming onto the level brought the water up to 1/3 of a glass, Driver shutting off had no effect at all and kept it at 1/3 of a glass. Put the injector on and left it, other train arrived, went back to the box for the token, came back and it was at 2/3rds of a glass with the valves feathering. Got the tip, turned off the injector, Driver opened up and the level stayed at 2/3rds of a glass. Then we got back on the 1-in-75 and it went down slightly. All good.

    In contrast coming in chimney first uphill with 1/4 glass would be a buttock-clenching affair, with both injectors on, gentle brake applications and probably the loco being brought to a stand in mid-gear with the regulator open. "What steps are you going to take?". Bl**dy great big ones....
     
  10. Seagull

    Seagull Member

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    If water doesn't get lifted when running bunker first, I suggest you come for a trip up Tenterden bank and see how the water drops when the regulator is shut at Tenterden home signal. I can assure you that if you've been running up the bank with less than half a glass you won't have much showing when you come to a stand!
     
  11. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    Glad you're in agreement Pete :thumb:. Basic physics dictates that the water/steam in the boiler will behave the same whatever direction the loco is going, the amount the water level rises by is dependent on the amount of demand being put on the boiler at any given time. The variables are the effect of acceleration/deceleration and the direction/amount of gradient that the loco might be on.
     
  12. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    All i know is that if i am climbing Tenterden bank smokebox first and i cant see the water bobbing in the top of the glass , the injector goes on and stays on till it is better to be safe than sorry.
     
  13. Seagull

    Seagull Member

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    Exactly!
     
  14. 32670

    32670 New Member

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    Dear Muppet

    I have noticed that your stock register has not been updated since the departure of 6619 and arrival of 65
     
  15. howard

    howard Member

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    I expect he's a busy man with a job and more to think about than homework in the evenings William.
     
  16. sycamore

    sycamore Member

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    I suspect he is also thinking of suitably intelligent answer too!

    NB:

    I don't see it here either: Kent & East Sussex Railway - Steam Locomotives
    but 65 is...

    Will
     
  17. howard

    howard Member

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    Talk to your Dad, he's the Operating Manager and he may have some pull with the management of the site!
     
  18. sycamore

    sycamore Member

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    That's news to me!

    Will
     
  19. Seagull

    Seagull Member

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    I think you're getting confused again old chap!!! It looks like I've now got two sons that both happen to have the same name!
     
  20. howard

    howard Member

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    Sorry about that! Note to self - read the posters name!
    The Operating Manager is sitting at the opposite end of the office to me and laughing.
     

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