70013 & 30777 ECML lineside fires 02/09/11.

Thanks to KentYeti, Spamcan81, Ralph and others for your insights and observations on the incidence of lineside fires pre-68.

Regarding suggestions about claiming on personal travel insurance, eligibility is - in my case at least - slightly ambiguous. I need to demonstrate that no-one else is liable first - and then, after taking account of excess and potential higher premiums in the future, it starts getting marginal as to whether it's worth the hassle of claiming. And isn't it the job of the insurers of the party causing the problem to deal with third party claims ? Anyway let that rest now - others will have been in a worse position than I.

I was very interested in springers post about 5690 minutes of delays. I assume that's the cumulative delay to all the trains caught up as a result. If you multiple the delay times by the number of pax+crew on each train then it all gets to be very large in total delay time alone, let alone consequential impact. Which means it is worth understanding the cause and whether it was avoidable or not. Would investigations into relatively minor incidents of this nature (i.e not a Hatfield, Potters Bar etc) be a matter of course, and if so, do the outcomes get published ? (like Air Accidents)

Anyway thanks for your contributions.

J

 

MY understanding from a reliable source is that Network Rail has issued a report giving delays of 1800 minutes due to the incidents on Friday. Not sure where 5690 minutes came from (maybe a Leander supporter lol). Network Rail also state that the cause of the lineside fires was open ashpan depositing live coals on to the track and lineside from 30777 and no reference to mesh irregularities.

My source has also suggested that EC will now insist on diesel assistance for all EC mainline steam tours for the forseeable future. One hopes that is not the case but clearly there is a serious debate going on at EC Management.

Nick

 

By the way, Network Rail also add that 25 trains were cancelled. As other have said, maybe the journey times for these trains have been added to the 1800 minutes.

Whatever way you look at it, a black day for steam.

One does have great sympathy for the crew. Imagine if the ashpan was open when it should have been closed. Imagine how the fireman must be feeling now. I just can't imagine.

There will be an investigation between NR EC and West Coast when the actual cause of the problems will be established and only then will we know what really did happen. At this point, it is too soon.

One only hopes that common sense prevails and EC and NR don't impose a ban on steam on the EC mainline.

Nick

 

Bear in mind that there was also a major train failure on the ECML near Peterborough at around the same time which also caused a lot of disruption and delays. I imagine that there will be a great deal of negotiation about which delays werer caused by what train !

David

 

Surely steam tours are a matter for NR and not ECT who are but one TOC using the ECML. Perhaps the other TOCs should insist on diesel assistance for ECT's electric trains as it was the failure of one of these that caused chaos with northbound trains on the same day as 30777's little faux pas.

 

What good will putting a DL on the steam tours do, the ashpan could still be left open! I've long thought that some elements in NR ECML have an anti steam attitude and this incident will only increase it. Just look at the way they stop everything every time someone stands on a foot crossing or sets foot inside the lineside fence. This doesn't happen to the same extent on other lines although tresspas is universal.
Andover

 

Oh I wouldnt trust NR DEVAC section to get it right....Am sure they will use the TIN as a dumping TIN.

 

Absolutely - if they really do have to take some action I would suggest a ban on steam on the ECML at peak periods in order to minimise any disruption. I would prefer to see unassisted steam tours running at weekends only than the unsatisfactory situation of diesels assisting and the ensuing debate as to just how much assistance they are actually giving.

 

David's, (Andover) point is common sense to us. But I doubt very much it will come into play for long if an anti-steam organisation wants to end solo steam operation. It will just be mentioned as a mere technicality, "steam locos have plenty of ways of setting fire to the countryside", would no doubt be a response that would be acceptable to all but those of us who know different.

I do feel that boxes becoming mandatory on steam tours on some/all sections of mainline is inevitable in the fairly near future. Unless failure rates and incidents like this fire are significantly reduced very soon.

Comes back to the point I've been banging on about for a long time here now. Main line steam has to change to survive. A concentration of resource and infrastructure at just a few locations. Where working on and with steam locos becomes the hard core of daily work for a good number of people. Effectively moving a good way back to the days when normal steam operation was usually quite reliable and without the problems we see today.

Yes. All sorts of issues to address to get to that stage. Financing it, customer support for what would become a fewer number of routes and possibly also fewer loco types, etc, etc. And people who can face up to addressing the multitude and complexity of those issues to make it work. Issues that I by no means underestimate, it will be one hell of a change. An enormous task to achieve successfully.

And would I want to be involved in such a change?

No. Certainly not. Amongst a number of reasons, I could not handle the negativity to that change that would constantly present itself from all directions.

And I've never seen the will here on Nat Pres for support for such a move. Just a sort of "no, that can't be done for a list of reasons as long as my arm", (or should I say as long as a tape measure around my waist!), plus the "it ain't broke, it doesn't need fixing" attitude. Well it is broke, and it does need fixing. Or we'll end up only with box hauled tours with a steam loco marshalled as the second loco in the train.

 

I have to agree. I've said before on here (and not just this year) that failure rates are too high, and are going to sound the death knell for steam on the mainline unless things improve. If it isn't NR and the TOC's etc then it will be the customers voting with their feet. I'm now at the stage where I feel it's almost too much of a gamble to blow £100+ ea on a tour that either may not run, or may break down, or may get delayed so we don't get home until tomorrow.

I know there are repeat itineraries which day in day out offer reliable trips, but these generally use pools of loco's and operate from a base with regular crews etc eg the Mallaig and Shakespeare's etc. But the trips that appeal to me are the longer trips with a challenging route, and these are the ones which appear most prone to failures.

As the Yeti says, something's got to change.

 

Woops sorry.....DEVAC...is the dept on NR that allocate the delay minutes....stands for Delay, something that cant remember, validation, something else cant remember, centre.

Delay minutes are allocated to TIN'S......Train Incident number.

There have been situations where there has been a big TIN(caused by a TOC/FOC but not NR) and about the same time, say, a signal failure that has caused a small delay, and low and behold the delays due to the signal failure appears on the TOC TIN.....better performance figures for NR. Now if the TOC/FOC has a good delays dept they will pick this up but if the TOC does not have a dely dept then they will end up with the minutes/performace fines etc

 

Have only just got back from Dorset and heard about this. People in this thread who keep saying it "was only human error" aren't really taking the situation very seriously - you can't just brush an incident like this aside and carry on as before! This must be the biggest cock up since Green Arrow ran out of water at Garsdale, and that was on the S&C on a winter weekend and involved a hold up on the Down line for an hour or so, not the ECML on a Friday night before a bank holiday weekend shutting the whole thing down......................:doh:

 

But no bigger than the cock ups that happen with depressing regularity on the ECML due to many other reasons. On the same day as the fires an ECT IC225 unit failed at Peterborough and caused chaos with northbound trains, a couple of days later there were signalling and points problems at Hitchin causing long delays. I agree you can't sweep the matter under the carpet and steam will always be the easy target but it needs to be seen in the bigger picture of ECML problems.

 

You can't run the ECML without the potential for modern traction or sig and points failures.

You can run it without main line steam operations.

That's why this is such a critical "cock up", highlighting the vulnerabliity of main line steam.

 

Well said. If there are readers on here who seriously doubt there are problems with the running of steam tours at present and the image that is giving to prospective passengers and TOC managers they must have very blinkered reading.

If you read the press/Uk Steam tours and/or have done as I have a fair bit of line-siding for what are regular runs, not one-offs, you have to agree the image isn't good. Ignoring what may have been an unfortunate human error of lapsed concentration with 30777 last week, and therefore a genuine accident, the items listed below don't give you confidence as a prospective punter to book ahead, especially where booking for the tour also involves a day or two off work and overnight B&B accommodation as you are distant from the tour start point:-

Fact - look at the loco changes and train tour date amendments in UK Steam tours for the year to date, it doesn't give you confidence to book ahead. This week is unexpectedly bad but we have ACE = changed due to loco failure - Dorset Coast Express= 75% only by steam and one changed engine - Pompey Pacific - changed engine and itinerary - Weymouth Seaside = Cancelled - engineering works.

Fact - at least one tour loco ran out of coal and got home to shed by burning scrap wooden sleepers (Not reported in press but personally seen occurring) and same engine also reported in this forum as having had difficulties on an earlier running of the same tour due to low coal reserves.

Fact - a good % of those watched have been late varying from 5 minutes upwards to over 4 hours!. Not all steam's fault as at least one late arrival's cause was a preceding service train breakdown but a delay to the pax all the same.

Fact - at least one train altered due to lack of a booked crew member.

Lineside rumour only - one tour loco was minutes away from having to throw out the fire as the tender was almost dry and the service train holding it up was running late. (Comment from fellow photographer who was stating what he overheard the crew saying just before they got road for the last mile or so of single track to shed)

Some of the above could be argued to be unavoidable but others were issues simply down to pushing to the limit with no fall back option in the plan. Given the cost of these tours, especially for a husband and wife couple or family treat group outing, which is now the target market, the industry has to get it's act together, ensure there are proper pools of engines and crews, including cover spares, running on regular routes with reserve stock piles of a few coal sacks and with emergency water hydrant options planned in and significantly including Network Rail issuing long term maintenance schedules so that future repeats of silly things like the September Weymouth Seaside dates doesn't recur.

I want steam to survive but other than for heritage lines without changed ways it may not have a future.

Edit - a PS addendum

Went to watch the DCE with 70013 arrive Weymouth this afternoon - arrival initially appeared to be on time BUT a check of the watch gave it as 13:48 = 4 late on the UK steam tour timings. This resulted in the shunt to the sidings also obviously being a smidgeon late as it held up the incoming service train for a brief signal check whilst the stock cleared the pointwork. Nothing major, almost on-time, but a typical example of a tour being pathed with almost zero margin for error in the schedules.

 

Actually not quite a bank holiday weekend. That was the previous week. Even so, we all take your point.

 

I agree. I and my wife are booked on the West Highlander this week at a cost to us of around £2,000.

We have already lost one section of the advertised trip, to Mallaig, with no cost reduction and no alternative added. We have lost one of the loco's, 62005. Steam is now from Carnforth and not Preston. The advertised double-heading from Glasgow to Fort William is not happening.

And 46115, our loco now for all 4 days, is still under repair at WCRC which may or may not turn out to be sorted, no-one's saying currently, with under 4 days to go.

Add to that a diesel-hauled Torbay Express a year ago, a late cancellation and lost hotel costs the time before, problems and a late return on the Steam Dreams trip we took earlier this year, etc.

It makes me cautious of committing any more money to mainline steam, much as I like it

And as a comparison, the week we spent touring the narrow gauge railways of Wales in Summer went exactly to plan, everything worked as it was meant to. So have all the trips to heritage lines. All money well spent.

I hope this is not going too far off topic, it's just meant to make the point that mainline steam has to get a bit more professional to keep its customers.

 

Just getting back on-topic, this statement has been posted today on the 5305la's website:

"On Friday afternoon, 2 September, locomotive 30777 'Sir Lamiel' was involved in an incident on the East Coast Main Line, in which lineside fires started in the Doncaster area. The delay impact upon other operators' trains was significant. 5305 Locomotive Association ('5305LA') desires to record its particular regret and sadness at the resulting disruption caused to many users of the railway.

The cause of the fires is the subject of exhaustive investigation, which 5305LA fully supports, by the train operating company concerned. 5305LA note that since fitment of the existing spark suppression equipment in 2006, this locomotive has covered thousands of miles and never previously started lineside fires, and was presented for service on the network in good order on the day concerned.

As custodians of three main line steam locomotives, 5305LA takes very seriously the privilege, and responsibility, associated with running steam locomotives in their intended environment, on the main line railway. Locomotives in 5305LA's care give great pleasure to many people in the course of their work only as a result of the dedication, skill and professionalism of its volunteer workforce, several of whom are professional railwaymen, and many of whom have worked with 'Sir Lamiel' for decades.

5305LA sets high standards, in keeping with our place on the national network, and will therefore dedicate appropriate skill and resources to consider what may be learned from this unfortunate occurrence, so that confidence in the operation of this and other locomotives may be rebuilt.

Locomotive 30777 'Sir Lamiel' is part of the National Collection, and has operated on the national network under the custodianship of 5305LA and its predecessor organisation for over thirty years.

On Friday 2 September 2011, following a summer season in Yorkshire, the locomotive was travelling from Northallerton (North Yorkshire) to Southall (West London) when lineside fires started in the Doncaster area".

 

I think there are some very valid points being made in this thread and there is no doubt that steam has been running at the very limit of it's capabilities this summer. There has been a chronic shortage of motive power, a very ambitious programme and some potentially serious mistakes have been made (this incident and 70000's water issue spring imediately to mind in the last fortnight alone). Every week someone seems to have been performing miracles to hold the schedule together and when systems are pushed mistakes are made. Reform has got to come from within and I think West Coast holds the cards here. They are by far the largest steam organisation involved with mainline running and bridge the gap between our world and the modern railway. I am not calling for a return to SLOA, but better communication and practices need to be put in place that help to prevent errors from happening. Standards need to be raised, there needs to be better fall back options and certainly in some cases expectations as to what can be achieved in a day need to be lowered. A few years ago reliability was very poor amongst TOC's and they were getting it in the neck left, right and centre (rightly so). To their credit many TOC's now report reliability figures well into the 90's % and have worked hard to achieve this - they don't want things stuffing those figures up! As Kent Yeti said steam is an easy target as it is seen as a guest on the modern railway and isn't a fixed issue like track and signalling issues. Steam needs to get it's house in order to avoid these mistakes and not provide the ammunition for those who no longer want us about on 'their' tracks. Open access gives us the right to be there, but it will only take a few more issues like this of human error in the wrong place at the wrong time to see us being there, but with serious strings attached.