70013 & 30777 ECML lineside fires 02/09/11.

Frank seems to believe that he can change the industry through an internet forum. I think the rest of us rather more savvy than that.

 

With his self proclaimed abundance of knowledge and expertise, I'm eagerly awaiting the launch of Gradwellrail in the steam charter market. I'm sure he's a great big pussycat at heart though.

 

Anyway 30777 is still at Newark Northgate when i passed through today

 

I wonder if she can be loaded onto a low-loader where she is or whether she'll need to be moved to somewhere with good-enough road access first? Where might that be? I guess her piston rods will need to be removed first (so the cylinders won't need lubricating, which needs steam), then a slow tow. Even if she can be loaded where she is, I expect a DL will be needed to shunt her onto the lorry. It all takes time to arrange, and costs a few bob...

 

Not to mention the tender would need to be detached, don't know how easy that would be at the trackside.

 

Connecting rods.

 

There's access at the north end of the yard at Newark Northgate for a low loader. A Grand Central HST power car got taken off a train there a couple of years ago and couldn't be moved by rail, so had to be taken away by low loader. Though on another forum it was stated the power car would be taken away by a Chinnook! The guy kept the story going for quite a while!

 

I've lost the thread re 30777 amongst very full and valid points on the overall subject of steam action. Is 30777 banned from mainline now or can she still be towed. What needs to be done to the engine ? ( Pity they won't let her steam in the belting rain to avoid fires; plenty of it here in Berkshire ! )

 

Earlier in the thread it was said that the loco was going back to Loughborough for repairs. If this is true, it will have to go onto a low-loader at some point so it makes sense for it to do the whole journey by this means. Pointless moving it part way by rail.

 

OK thanks. We shall find out more in time, I think.

 

For those who think the internet has no effect on public awareness - please visit your local magistrates court after last month's riots, and Witterbook postings, or listen to Call me Dave's reaction to epetitions which reach sufficient proportions

For those who don't understand maintaining a stance, or persistence with a project, - look at the preservation movement as a whole and choose any one example. None of them fell off the tree operating.

For those who want to postinsults and name calling - please play the ball and not the man - is you can!

or

Ican wait to read your justification of why better corporate management and communication is so unnecessary when, without any effort, I can submit such as the actuality of 5407 on Glencruitten, or 5029 on Llanvihangel; The Lindum Fayre or York Yuletide last December, the acceptance by a TOC and NR of proposals for twin steam excursions from Inverness to Wick and return in one day which had eventually to run as an overnight diesel empty stock move and a doubleheaded one way ADEX, or the Peak Forester cancellation earlier this year when neither gauging nor patchs proved to be possible - or passengers spending an entire day in unheated unlit stock at fares approaching £100 - Do I need to go on?? The loco and support crews who actually have to deliver on the day are just as much hostage to fortune too. Their responsibilities and welfare shouldn't be compromised by resultant difficulties either.

Be honest - the 5305 Group is at the end of this one - they have a reputation for best practice over three decades. They don't want or need to be involved in situations like this.

So - If the above examples - from only one season of steam tours, isn't a shambles that needs addressing - what is? And if anyone as a customer is really happy with providers making profits out of it, then who really is the fool?

The industry and its clients deserves far better than this and anyone that doesn't think so deserves exactly what they get. As an enthusiast nowadays, I can only put the suggestion into play - but with a lifetime of doing the right thing financially, legally and management wise by the railways, national and preserved - where my handiwork is still evident, I know who won't be there regretting that he stayed silent when it isn't.

 

I find myself siding with Frank on this one, whilst I accept there are people working hard to make it happen, there seems to be an equal amount of "left to chance" or last minute, by some parties somewhere in the system.


My own experience, there are forums the berate the activities I do ( i do not work with the railways), but my position is the higher paying customers get the most attention, and sadly the lower slower markets gets the newbies, those on the way out or those employees who have less commitment to the job, and I have to balance the consequence.

I suspect in the real world of railways the story is much the same...
Steam is the smaller customer, with lots of hard working people reacting to last minute events, whilst promotirs set out with best intention, whilst waiting for other parties to do there bit.

Unfortunately in this new world of reducing costs.. Sometimes even small profitable customers will get dumped, because the resource required to service the Market is not justifiable for the return, if there is more money to be made elsewhere.

Before waving various legal and riot acts, remember the shop owner has the right to refuse to sell.

And here on this forum, we are but spectators, the best we can do is rally round if support is requested, but let them that be fight there own battles... It's there job, there business, not ours... and I am sure they are well aware of the strength of feeling from them who buy the tickets as well as what they may read on here

 

Amazingly, as we haven't always seen eye to eye, I'm right with Frank on some, (but not all), of what he has been saying on this. And the need for him to say it again and again. Some of it may eventually sink in.

And I have been a little concerned about the "low level" attacks on him, (as I see them), that him daring to speak out have seen.

I doubt you need me to say it Frank, but I will: Keep on speaking yer mind.

 

Maybe I overly care about which trips I go on Al.

I had a good list at the start of this year. But, very sadly, it is increasingly looking like my only trips will be that wonderful SD day behind Tangmere in July. And a return from Woking to Swanage the week before that, also with Tangmere. Nothing else has turned out as I have first seen and expected to get for a day out.

And it isn't cost of a day out that stops me going. It's the fact that having booked a trip that changed significantly I'd feel obliged to go and sit bored out of my mind. Indeed parts of the Swanage trip tested my patience and am I pleased I joined and left at Woking.

The latest loss to me is if I could have got a ticket for Waterloo to Salisbury behind 30777. Ok, that wasn't an advertised section for a single ticket, but SD are known for selling such when they have seats to spare. Indeed I'd have stood up to time an Arthur over that route down the direct main line. But as the day approached I just reckoned it wouldn't happen. And it didn't. And the super run I believe did take place would just have been of no lasting interest to me. A Brit and Tangy double heading that route on 12? I could take it or leave it. Left it in fact.

Yeaah. I'm a fussy old sod. But I've got plenty else to do these days. Type up and tabulate all my old SR steam logs. Digitise and put to my web sites my entire steam loco and aircraft photo collections. And pursue my new and wonderful interest in bird photography, especially owls and especially Barn owls who have become a great love in my life.

 

I've said this earlier, but I'm also in agreement with much of Frank's argument.

The steam tour industry has to strive to deliver 100% quality produce if it is to maintain it current level of mainline activity. This may mean the formation of some over-arching body which will regulate to some extent the operation of tours, acting as a clearing house for proposed tours and the point of contact with NR etc. Such a body could also act in a sort of ABTA capacity, acting as guarantor of last resort when things go wrong, members placing a bond with the organisation and the possibility of offering compensation in the form of discounts etc off tours by other member companies if nothing suitable is on offer from the defaulting operator.

The body could also offer vouchers etc such as gift tokens which could be bought as presents by the public and exchanged against tours by any member operator.

Just a few ideas of the top of my head, but surely it would be a better system than the present situation?

 

Sorry but your recollections of this era are a tad different to mine!

It was nothing in the days you so remember to have a set of stock that had come straight off a service train somwhere, bearly had time to be cleaned/serviced in the depot and thrown back out on a charter in a dreadful state.

In the later years of 'rail charter services' the exterior appearence of some of these coaches was far worse than anything any railtour operator would put out on a railtour now. And some of the interiors were not much better, and peraphs best not to mention the mechanical condition of some...

Loco reliability had just the same issues back then, i can recall several trips with some engines where problems were encountered and there was no second engine to deputise then.

Taking into account how much more work/miles the loco's do today on railtours as oppose to back then, you may well find that the fleet miles per casualty is far higher now than back in your golden age.

Another issue was footplate crews, i'm sure most loco owners now would tell you that they are far more happy with todays crews oppose to some of the animals of the 70's/80's.

I'm afraid it wasn't quite the perfection you claim it to be!!

 

There is quite a large write up about this in the latest SR. Compensation figures of £1m are being talked about & NR may have to pick up most of the tab. Seems that the toc's compensation for each incident is capped at £5000. There is now talk of banning steam on the ECML during peak hours. Also, as mentioned before, it seems there were almost 5700 hours of delay.

 

I've highlighted a bit because it's one of several ways in which an NR institutionally more hostile than today could get steam off the busier main lines if they set their mind to it, without having to lobby for years to change the laws on access. All they need to do is manipulate timings and pricing (e.g. by adding an "extraordinary risk premium" to track charges) in order to make it impossible for the tour companies to offer an attractive product.

Tell us who's been doing the talking, buseng.

But recent history, most notably the up non-stop Bristolian but the recent ACE too, also shows that not everyone at NR is anti-puffers and some are prepared to be flexible. Perhaps the various tour operators/TOCs could sit down together and let each other know who their friends are.

 

Ive got to be honest, in thinking several times that seeing steam in a major london terminal between 3 and 7pm mid-week to me has always been a bit mystifying...
Whilst the operators "can" go on the mainline at peak hours, doesnt mean they should, or that it's ideal... afterall much freight is saved to after hours.

Maybe steam movements should be taken off 100mph lines, or major connurbation trunk routes between 7-10am and 3-7pm mid week ?... after all if it's Network Rail paying £1mn in compensation.. it's ergo all of us in our taxes paying for this jolly gone wrong.

After all the public and industry have a right to use public transport, steam isnt serving either the public or industry, it is a luxury.