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7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. clinker

    clinker Member

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    The 8f boiler is not completely unsuitable for a county, Swindon used the flanging blocks they had for making 8f boilers during the war to produce the flanged plates for the firebox of the number 15 boiler, hence why the 8f has donated its firebox, rather a significant part of the boiler. The same 8f has also donated its cylinders to keeping a black five in mainline operation, and throughout the last 50 years a lot of components that were stripped in Barry have helped other groups rebuild Barry wrecks.[/QUOTE]


    It's amazing isn't it? there I was, repairing boilers for the last 40 years thinking that the suitability (Working pressure) of a boiler (and repair) depended on trivial things like plate specification, thickness,number of stays, spacings and silly things like that when it turns out that the only thing that makes things suitable is the flanging blocks that the plates were formed over, I really have been misled for the best part of My life.

    With respect to the cylinders and their re-use, particularly given the way that they were removed from the frames, would they have been re-used if the boiler had not been removed to be irreversibly altered for use on the 'cut(up) and paste' pastiche project?
     
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  2. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    It's amazing isn't it? there I was, repairing boilers for the last 40 years thinking that the suitability (Working pressure) of a boiler (and repair) depended on trivial things like plate specification, thickness,number of stays, spacings and silly things like that when it turns out that the only thing that makes things suitable is the flanging blocks that the plates were formed over, I really have been misled for the best part of My life. [/QUOTE]

    Amazing indeed. But despite all this reminiscing, British Engineering Services, one of the countrys leading engineering inspections companies for pressure vessels, have carried out such calculations you describe and agreed to oversee the repairs and modification of this boiler/firebox under PSSR (maybe some might even have to be done under PED) and ultimately pass it for use at the end of the rebuild.

    With respect to the cylinders and their re-use, particularly given the way that they were removed from the frames, would they have been re-used if the boiler had not been removed to be irreversibly altered for use on the 'cut(up) and paste' pastiche project?[/QUOTE]

    Who Knows, but there had already been a serious ammount of stripping/robbing of vey expensive parts long before the boiler was removed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2023
  3. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    That was the rationale, but haven't they in the end replaced most of the firebox with new material?[/QUOTE]

    I dont believe most of it has been changed, but certainly wasted areas that would have still needed changing if it was used as an 8f firebox.
     
  4. Mrcow

    Mrcow Member

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    I'm happy to be corrected if you can find a source, but from what I can see the extent of the work has been renewing some patch rivets and general maintenance. I've done my best (i.e. done a couple of Google searches and read the press releases and the project website) to find mention of anything else getting replaced and can't find it.


    [​IMG]

    The Counties had their boiler pressure reduced from 280 to 250psi later in their lives meaning 225psi is a relatively small difference for the intended use of 1014. In related news, IIRC the County boiler used a nickel alloy steel to a higher specification than the 8f boilers which apart from the variation in the barrel taper seems to be the main difference between them.

    I don't want to sound like a bit of a party pooper, but there does seem to be a concerted "this is a bad thing" effort with the facts selected to support the view that these are evil deeds. Personally I'd far rather see 1014 than another occupant of the linear scrapyard. The people with the time, money and skills to restore Barry locos are thin on the ground now, and anyone who can't see the effect that is having has got their head very firmly buried in the sand.* If someone is sufficiently motivated to do something useful to a locomotive that, despite what we may wish, was not going anywhere else, let them have their fun. FYI, this is solely in reference to 1014. I do think the boiler from 7027 is a crappy choice and I'll be monumentally surprised if it does anything other than gather moss.

    *I've just been involved in the purchase of a loco that was, it's own way, involved in a similar amount of fuss in the circle of enthusiasts to which it was important. I'm looking after it because literally none of the other people who were making a fuss could/would do so and I was concerned for its longer term survival. It's all well and good saying a loco has a future and is worth XYZ, but it doesn't if nobody can pay for it, accomodate it, and restore it. It's just a big pile of scrap and a liability.
     
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  5. Mrcow

    Mrcow Member

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    Now that's something I'd love to see! (looks for a Class 40 whilst holding a lit oxy-acetelyne torch)
     
  6. Cartman

    Cartman Part of the furniture

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    use 45015 as a base!
     
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  7. clinker

    clinker Member

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    Amazing indeed. But despite all this reminiscing, British Engineering Services, one of the countrys leading engineering inspections companies for pressure vessels, have carried out such calculations you describe and agreed to oversee the repairs and modification of this boiler/firebox under PSSR (maybe some might even have to be done under PED) and ultimately pass it for use at the end of the rebuild.


    I've no doubt that B.E.S. have carried out such calculations, and have arrived at a boiler pressure of 225 psi, as opposed to 250 or 280, which by My reckoning is only doing half a job and the result will not be a glass half full but a glass half empty, but if those spending the money are happy with that, well, more fool them, the resulting loco may look like a Hawksworth county, but that is as far as it goes.


    With respect to the cylinders and their re-use, particularly given the way that they were removed from the frames, would they have been re-used if the boiler had not been removed to be irreversibly altered for use on the 'cut(up) and paste' pastiche project?[/QUOTE]

    Who Knows, but there had already been a serious ammount of stripping/robbing of vey expensive parts long before the boiler was removed.[/QUOTE]

    Oh well that's all right then isn't.
     
  8. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    That is an old photo of the firebox work. The foundation ring has since been removed. I suggest that you look at Heritage Boiler Services facebook pages to see exactly what work has been done.
     
  9. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    This thread is suffering from some confusing quoting where you have to work out what is quoted text and what is responses to that.
     
  10. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    If you report the posts to the mods, they are usually kind enough to fix the quotes
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    So the engineer in me is questioning this a bit, because on the new P2 we've seen the opposite, an increase in boiler pressure to 250lb and a reduction in overall cylinder dimensions to compensate for the increased pressure and bring it into gauge for the mainline. If the County isn't going mainline, disregard this.

    If it is intended to, I can't see how you will get meaningful performance out of a boiler with cylinders which likely have had to be reduced in size across the width in order to compensate for NR's much more restrictive loading gauge than the original Counties encountered. The additional boiler pressure means you're not always pushing the boiler to its absolute maximum, you can get away with lower pressures than the maximum (e.g. you can get the A1 boiler up to 220lb or 230lb and leave it there and not necessarily need to reach the working pressure of 250lb, but you can't do that if you've already restricted the boiler to a lower pressure of 225lb.

    I suppose though, contrary to that, the boiler on Scotsman (as an example) is 220lb which is a lower rating than the pseudo county boiler at 225lb, and it's not exactly short of steam. So we shall see. It would be interesting to see the results once the County is in steam and whether the extra 25lb does make a material difference.

    I remain sceptical that using the 8F boiler really added anything to the County build, and given a similarly sized Patriot boiler has been built new, and larger ones besides, the use of the 8F boiler strikes me as unnecessary. The 8F itself could have been restored, we have seen similarly decrepit locomotives restored to full working order. Nothing about the 8F made it a special case to be cut up, other than a theoretical shared dimensions with the county in terms of the (inner?) firebox.

    Time will tell.

    No disagreement from me here, but had 7027 been properly publicly available (and I am still not convinced that it was - see earlier in the thread for ruminations on the relative need for some form of heritage register or publication for these things) then you may have found a group formed to buy and restore. Thornbury was actually ideal for the G.C.R. in a lot of ways, and quite a few people were thrilled to be getting a Castle in. Castles are big draws, after all.

    We could go over and over it, but it won't change anything.
     
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  12. marshall5

    marshall5 Part of the furniture

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    The cylinders on 1014 are still those from 7927 which donated its frames to the project so haven't been reduced in size to suit NR's loading gauge or anything else. The combination of larger wheels (6'3" against 6'0" for a Hall) and 225psi working pressure will, as I have said before, make 1014 simply an impotent pastiche of a County. If this loco ever goes mainline I'll eat my greasetop - and you'd need to see my greasetop to realize how hazardous to health that would be.
    Ray.
     
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  13. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    We shall see. In terms of wheel diameters it is only 1" bigger than a Standard Class 5 that also only has a 225psi boiler, The hall cylinders could be bored out to 19 3/4" dia, I believe they are currently around 19" the same as a new Std class 5, at 30" as appose 28" a hall cylinder has 2" longer stroke too. A County with Stephenson vlave should have a bit more go low down too.
    I agree though, I cannot ever see the County going mainline.
     
  14. Mrcow

    Mrcow Member

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    I'm still sad that got cut up, I wanted it to be conserved as a monument to a very specific period in UK railway preservation. It was as representative of railway history as the rebuilt rocket.
     
  15. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I would suspct that there is as much chance of Shannon going mainline as the County (or the 47xx), I don't think there is the appetite within the GWS for the cost and ballache of mainline plus not sure what the long term effects on volunteers of the 7027 debacle will be, there was plenty of dissent from current volunteers online when all this kicked off, I got the impression it brought something that was piddling a lot of volunteers off in the background out into open view.
     
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  16. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    A specific period? There have been - and still are - numerous restoration basket cases littered around heritage railway sidings, industrial units and the UK countryside. Projects that had the money to buy the loco but the money and manpower for actual restoration failed to materialise for whatever reason.

    With increased availability of online crowd-funding, this could easily continue as "rescue" projects simply result in a rusting wreck changing hands to another over-optimistic owner.
     
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  17. Champion Lodge

    Champion Lodge New Member

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    Im sure the GWS will dangle the carrott to get donations but saying help restore the engine to the mainline but after the cash arrives the plans seems to change. Their recent track record is particularly good ...
    As for Thornbury Castle... its a disgrace the GWS have anything to do with it.... they need to be ashamed of themselves. I for one will never visit Didcot again or support anything to do with them and yes I have supported their fund raising appeals in the past......
     
  18. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Much as I would like to see a County running on the main line, I agree that the prospect of this not-quite-County doing so is very remote. Even at their original 280 psi, Counties were rated Class 6, so roughly equivalent to a Jubilee. There's a good amount of main line work for Class 7 and 8 locos but a limited amount for anything smaller, even those that are more gauge-friendly.
     
  19. Mrcow

    Mrcow Member

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    That's what I meant. The bit after a Barry restoration meant oiling round and a lick of paint and the bit before all the "No, I won't sell, it's going to get restored" people die or realise that they are incorrect. It is, joking aside, a very significant part of/problem with railway preservation and a look that is burned into my memory from visiting railways.

    I suspect the current wave of EMU/HST purchases will sadly propagate a new wave of siding fillers as well. I can think of a far larger number of preservation sites that are choked with HIAB fodder than those like the Bluebell and South Tynedale that have started to realise their good intentions of hanging on to things are doing more harm than good to the organisation and the item itself. The relative ease of a sixties/seventies purchase to use pathway has cast a long shadow over stock and locos that fell outside it.
     
  20. Fireline

    Fireline Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Didcot recently indicate that they were turning their back on mainline operations completely? That would tend to indicate that the County has no mainline future, nor indeed any other loco in the collection.
     
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