7027 Thornbury Castle

Have they factored in the cost of ill will?

 

Brutal, but not wrong. The 'cottage industry' comment in the NRM report into their first restoration of a certain A3 keeps ringing true.

 

Considering they appear to have agreed to buy 7027 and then apparently gone cap in hand to the GWS to actually pay for her (and it still being unclear if they or in fact anyone has now paid for her) I would be inclined not to assume anything, like much with this project it seems to be a bit back of envelope and changes with the wind.

 

Work that was done in the same workshop and at the same time as the basic erection of the frames of 4709...

 

New build projects using all new material may cost more in the short term but provided they do their paperwork and no rework is involved, will end up cheaper in the long run. See: tornado, despite current issues.

The Patriot is an unfortunate first time recipient of the fundamental principle that planning is everything. It needed better planning and quality assurance. Happily they are fixing what is wrong - yes, it is frustrating for them that it wasn’t right first time.

Reusing parts is always fraught with issues and should be approach with caution.

The Saint worked because much of the fabric of the hall was retained, it was a close conversion. The further the alterations you need and the worse condition the parts are, the more danger of getting it wrong happens.

As for cost - repairing old has its own issues and costs and may not be cheaper than new building. The converse can be true of course, but I suspect the cost of materials and labour probably edges new build components for new build and conversion projects now.

But what would I know? I’ve only been treasurer to a locomotive undergoing overhaul for the last year, and have been treasurer to an operating locomotive for the last four years…

 

It happened with Duke of Gloucester's restoration, I think just because of some missing paperwork.

 

I think you have inadvertently made my point for me. The loco you have been treasurer for the past year is surely an atypical example in having a steel, rather than copper, firebox, and welded repairs to steel seem to be far less technically challenging than welding copper Don't know about the other loco that you allude to, but unless it has gone through a major copper firebox repair your experience may incomplete there too. In fact, very few groups have commissioned complete new copper fireboxes as yet, so information on costs for that type of work is very thin on the ground, so I'd respectfully suggest that it is an area very few people can comment on sensibly. I would, however, be very surprised if the costs of major work (e.g building new or extensive repairs) to a copper 'box were not substantially higher than a steel example. Feel free to prove me wrong, though, with some facts.

 

I think the problems we are seeing with a number of projects amount to rather more than just missing paperwork.

Tom

 

Indeed, I suspect that "missing paperwork" is very often a symptom of something deeper.

 

I’d agree with that, I think there’s some who think that on having a had a look in the latest Hornby, Bachmann, Lima, Mainline etc catalogue seem to think that whatever they’ve seen in those publications can be kitbashed in 1:1 scale.
I seem to recall the A1 trust way back in the mid 90’s thought it would be a good idea to reuse the frames of a certain A3’s tender, after a while the decision was changed to ‘shall we just build a new one instead?’ After realising how much it easier it would be with all the mods and paper work it would entail.

 

Indeed - and after their own false starts the current team on the Clan are setting the gold standard for documentation and pre-work. I've said before that even if that project doesn't ultimately succeed - I am a member so I very much hope it does - it's going to leave an absolute library of technical and certification documentation on How To Build A Steam Engine.

 

As I remember It the debarkle over Duke of Gloucester was not so much missing, as out of date paperwork, thinking back 30 plus years I've got It in mind that the tubes had been purchased when work comenced on the boiler, and by the time the boiler was ready to have them fitted the paperwork showed them to effectively be life expired, I think that it was about seven years old. I can't remember if the tubes had been fitted prior to being condemned. Just as an aside, what was the position regarding mainline operation when the restoration of DoG comenced?

 

I very much hope the Clan succeeds, but this is a really important point.

 

I never understood the point in the Patriot lot using one wheelset from the 8F. They still needed to design and manufacture another one. Surely it wouldn't have cost that much more for a second wheelset to be made?

 

This is true, but remember 4709 is competing for people's time and money with other projects. How many people really care about seeing a working 47XX?

 

I seriously doubt it. Rather like the WSR. Wonder what the common ground is here?

 

I don't know the state of 7027's boiler but it was rumoured to be in good condition. It will depend on how it has been stored in the last 50 years but BR overhauled boilers were generally in good condition when sent to Barry and, internally are probably still OK with useful life in the firebox. If the elements have been good to it and its storage well managed so there has been little deterioration of the external plates, its overhaul may well be a relatively cheap affair. How much will depend on what is considered to be part of that boiler . Does it include the firegrate and ashpan, for example, and what about the superheater header and elements?

 

I believe the A1 new build didn't exactly get off to a good start with a lot of the early work having to be re-done. The tender also came a cropper with regard to the brake gear of the new tender which was a direct copy of an original one. However, the inspecting authority realised that these tenders had no means of individual adjustment of the shoes and it was possible for all the brake force to be applied to just one pair of shoes and, under those circumstances they were overloaded. A new, beefed up set of brake gear had to be provided, so I'm told. It didn't apply to the existing, similar tenders as they had grandfather rights.

 

Fair points, but when it comes to quite a few items costs are likely to be the same for a new build as they would be for a repair. I'd be pleasantly surprised if the existing elements and ashpan were considered reusable but disappointed if the header wasn't, for example, and the point has been made previously that the locos at Barry generally were withdrawn with a good few years of residual life in them.

 

And these locomotives were withdrawn more than fifty years ago. They will have deteriorated every day since withdrawal unless conservation and protection measures were adequately put in place. The passage of time breaks everything down, rust, moth, age or fatigue, everything gets swept away sooner or later. To protect and preserve an object which you might value demands time and other resources. Sometimes a line is drawn and sometimes it has to be drawn. John Cameron drew a line and stopped keeping his locomotives in working order and there are some locomotives out there which struggle to gain enough support to keep them working. Didcot has locomotives which have not worked in decades, do long term plans exist or have lines been drawn here? They are quite keen on building yet another Churchward or Collett type out of recycled bits but so far as Gooch, Armstrong and Dean goes?
As things currently stand it is difficult to be convinced that either 4709 or 7027 have a secure and valued future.