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7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If the sale has actually gone through, as seems to be, then the loco now legally belongs to the 4709 group, so it's up to them to decide about any new deal, without reference to Michael Gregory, the GCR, or anyone else besides the prospective new purchaser(s).
     
  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    it didn't happen though so its a poor show at trying to justify an action

    I also wonder how much enthusiasm and physical support 4709 really attracts

    this is from the 4709 facebook page and a couple of paragraphs caught my eye

    "Here’s an opportunity to contribute to a unique preservation project. Because of COVID and the manifold challenges in ingathering resources, 4709’s birthing process has taken way longer than we anticipated. We’re through the worst of that and now need to recruit additional skilled hands and minds to get 4709 done.”
    That’s the word from 4709’s Chief Mechanical Engineer, Paul Carpenter.

    Paul admits that despite the group’s best efforts, progress has been slow; “Until now, 4709 has been run by a tiny group of dedicated people.

    With several high profile overhaul and new build projects nearing completion, Paul is hoping to attract volunteers from other preservation locos. “Those are critically important people with skills that are hard to find in this day and age. We’re hoping that by encouraging them to now join 4709, they can become part of a unique project and make a significant preservation contribution at the same time.”
     
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  3. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If anyone is going to build a new No.7 boiler, the first use for one must surely be on 4709. Building two, to have one for some other loco, would cost slightly less than twice as much, but not much less. What would be the rationale? After the 4700s, the GWR never built any 2-cylinder locos with boilers larger than No.1 until the one odd exception of the Counties, and those had a new design, No.15, partly inherited from the 8F design, not No. 7.
     
  4. malc

    malc Part of the furniture

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    Judging by the comments I’ve seen here and elsewhere, I suspect that the purchase and proposed dismantling of 7027 may actually result in a loss of support.
     
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  5. talyllyn1

    talyllyn1 Member

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    My experience of him was that as a highly successful and charismatic businessman, he could be pretty ruthless in getting his own way. It used to be said that if you went into negotiations with him you should sit at a round table to prevent him cutting the corners off it!
     
  6. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    Do they though? They appear to having a mad panic appeal to raise thousands of pounds.
    [​IMG]

    …which, incidentally, also seems to confirm that the GWS’s attempt to disassociate themselves from the whole debacle lies somewhere between disingenuous and dishonest.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I find the recent intervention by JJP interesting.

    As he describes it, his sale involved him seeking a reassurance that the 'right thing' would be done by the new owners. That sounds like a sale 'with strings' although with the sale he gave away any rights, financial or otherwise, unless this was formalised into a legal part of the sale. So unless this was the case I find it hard to see how he could expect to have any leverage at all on what happened next.

    Circumstances change and it appears that the new owners were given an offer that they couldn't refuse. Presumably they also knew that the previous owner had little interest in re-acquiring the locomotive so his wish to now approach them "to build a group to take the engine ownership forward" doesn't make sense. Why did he sell it in the first place? The man is in business himself so I'd be surprised if all of this wasn't apparent at the time and now. I'm therefore uncertain about the sincerity of this intervention.

    As for the future of the locomotive, I think we know that GWR locomotives generally are not gauge friendly for the main line. The current plan will definitely restrict the locomotive to either a heritage line or a heritage site such as at Didcot. And like it or not, what is proposed will add to the GWR heritage catalogue and I guess that some will see that as a plus.
     
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  8. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    Yet 5029, 5043, 5051 and 7029 have been here, there and everywhere, well away from GWR territory. Castles are much more gauge-friendly than a Hall or King. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
     
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  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Well yes, but try taking a Castle up the slow line of the GWML and see how many restrictions you get in 2022. Looking ahead, the future on the main line has its challenges.
     
  10. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I think it is telling that having originally taken it on as an individual project JJP now wants to reacquire to form the basis of a group. That suggests to me another prolonged spell in limbo approaches, is that really folk want? Or are all the protesters on here suddenly going to dig their overalls out every weekend and put their hands in their pockets to the extent of a good few thousand each? Probably not, I suggest.
     
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  11. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

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    Here is another picture showing some more of the work carried out on the locomotive earlier this year.
    DSC01546.JPG
     
  12. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Why is that telling?

    As others have said circumstances change - both for organisations & individuals. I think most folk realise that to have any sensible future this loco needs to be owned and taken forward by a properly constituted incorporated group. The experience to set this up is on offer. What is needed is to secure the loco, transfer it into the new group and press on with looking after it and returning it to working order. There seems to be much support for doing just that including from JJP himself. Fundraising for a proper boiler, to the Swindon drawings, by 4709 can then proceed without any stain or bad feeling. 82045 demonstrate admirably that it IS possible do do things right (once!) and have attracted considerable support in doing so. Other new builds need to study why that has happened.
     
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Suffice it to say that pleas for moral duty aren’t entirely convincing from that quarter.

    Ultimately, he sold 7027 and has now found that the promises made at that time have been worth less than the paper they were written on. Unless he’s willing and able to buy it back, mention of a group seems a little washy.


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  14. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    Interesting to note a post on Faceache claims Mike Gregory has died and it’s his daughter at the centre of this.

    This has nearly as many plot twists as Snailbeach did!
     
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  15. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    According to JJP when he sold 7027 it was actually to the daughter.
     
  16. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

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    From the February 2021 blog entry 4709’s First Cylinder cast satisfactorily at Boro Foundry — 4709 – The Ultimate British 2–8–0 :

    "The new cylinder blocks have been redesigned and manufactured to bring the width and height within the current Network Rail Loading Gauge – essential for future mainline running and similar to the design adopted for 6024 - King Edward I."

    The GWS Board decided in late 2019 to withdraw from mainline running. That, of course, should be that. But as I have alluded to in this post, there is a history within the GWS of certain people being unaccountable to the rest of the organisation, and doing as they please.

    The 5'8" wheels would dictate a modern limit of 60mph, however there was already 60mph limit imposed on the engines by BR due to their instability at speed, so it's quite conceivable that they would be further restricted in the 21st century.

    Ironically, the new cylinder block was designed to take a No.7 boiler, not a No.8, but no-doubt some bodgineering will come to the rescue.
     
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  17. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    It is telling, to me at least, that having been in a position of being sole owner he does not wish to revert to that position, probably because of the likely costs. I think this is a rather different situation to the 82045 group, who are recreating an example of an unrepresented class and moreover one that is likely to be an ideal engine for the 21st century Severn Valley Railway, rather than an eighth example of an already numerous class in preservation that is not suited to heritage railway needs. A better comparison would be Southern Locomotives with their Bulleid fleet - and experience there suggests that such an approach may be feasible, though I think it would be better for any such scheme to be associated with a heritage line.
     
  18. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I repeat that it makes no sense to create a 47xx locomotive with a view to running it on the main line and I'm sure that's not the intention. It's also arguable whether 7027 was ever destined for the main line.

    In recent times I recall that 34092 was a prime candidate for main line running but it never came to pass. Apart from the P2 that I imagine will get there at some point it's hard to think that any right minded set up will go down that route without considerable experience of doing so. The GWS doesn't spring to mind in that context.
     
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  19. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you are correct.
     
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  20. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Do we have to bring Snailbeach into it?! I’ll just throw Leader into it and we can discuss liveries later on.
     
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