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73096

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by domeyhead, Mar 16, 2009.

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  1. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    What imbecile?, please point out the problem please?.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  2. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Methinks the problem is the Title.
     
  3. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    chris= the problem is that the person who took the video did not know what drain cocks were and their function he wrongly thought that the explelled steam and water was an indication of a problem , if you dont use the drain cocks when you have a cold engine then yes you would have a very major problem
     
  4. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Thanks Martin I am not an engineer, carriages and wagons are more my line of work, however I am obliged for the information.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  5. 1X99

    1X99 Member

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    Somebody better tell the A1 Trust their brand new loco is already knackered then, if drain cocks only open when cylinder is fubarred.
     
  6. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    If people look at the video and the morning light and the cylinder cocks being opened and staying open before taking off - This is generally the norm at Alresford they will beable to tell it's taken from the right hand side and no problem there!! Even if I were on the footplate that day firing.. Steam on a dull day normally travels from experience on the footplate! Even way after the Cylinder Cocks are shut and a long time after firing and after different Cut-Of's....
    Normally just after the bridge at Alresford the Cocks get shut off so if a dull day the steam will normally remain a minute or so up towards the incline to Ropley...
     
  7. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Would also imagine that the RAIB would have been informed.
     
  8. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    Would also imagine that the RAIB would have been informed.[/quote:2x91vzkg]


    The RAIB have not been informed. They and we have decided the they need not investigarte.
     
  9. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    There seems to be some confusion here over various organisations commonly known by 4 letter acronyms. I will immediately add I am not totally sure of the divisions between what at first glance appear to overlapping areas of responsibility.

    HMRI - Her Majesty’s Railway Inspectorate. HMRI still exists and is now part of the Office of the Rail Regulator (ORR), which is the Health & Safety Regulator for the rail industry. The HMRI guidelines for reporting incidents can be downloaded from http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1210. I believe HMRI would lead on prosecutions of Health & Safety offences in the Rail Industry. Until last year (I think!), HMRI also inspected and approved new works on heritage railways. The Heritage Railway Association were campaigning for this to remain the case, but I believe this responsibility ceased last October.

    RAIB - Rail Accident Investigation Branch. This is a comparatively new organisation which undertakes in depth investigations into serious rail incidents in order to establish cause and make recommendations - not with a view to prosecution. Indeed, I believe only in the most serious cases can evidence gathered by RAIB be used on Court. Guidance on when incidents need reporting to RAIB can be found at http://www.raib.gov.uk/report_an_accide ... ance_2.cfm.

    RSSB - Rail Safety & Standards Board. Nothing to do with incident investigation, this body is custodian of "Railway Group Standards", the system of ensuring all organisations involved in the Rail industry work to either the same standards or have exemptions to the standards issued by RSSB. For example, I believe mainline registered steam locos need around 70 exemptions from the Group Standards in order to operate on Network Rail lines.

    I haven't read the guidance in detail but a quick look suggests none of the above organisations require the 73096 failure to be reported. I believe RSSB operate a system of warnings, where is one operator discovers a problem with a type of equipment, a warning to check all similar equipment is sent around other operators. I seem to recall when a joint failed in the smokebox of 75029 a couple of years ago, which lead to a reportable incident, RAIB commented that such a system did not seem to exist in heritage railways and it appears that, if the cause of the 73096 failure is as originally advised, owners of a wide range of locomotives should check piston heads (as has already been commented). Just as the above structure exists to ensure lessons are learnt from incidents on Railways at a national level, there is a legitimate interest in what caused steam locomotive failures within the heritage world to ensure such catastrophic failures as occurred to 73096 are avoided whenever possible.
     
  10. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I would presume from your post that if the RAIB have decided that they need not investigate, then they must have been informed?
     
  11. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    Yes, the faliure was reported.
     
  12. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    don't get what you mean? the drain cocks are driver operated and its normal procedure to open the drain cocks upon opening the regulator when the engine is either cold, or has been standing for a period of time as was shown in the first shots of 60163 moves in steam all engines do this, if they didnt, the presure of water in the steam chests would take the end covers out
     
  13. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Is it me or has Nat Pres lost the whole sence of humor thing?
     
  14. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Tighter controls Mitch after many complaints.

    It,s not the same without Chris Ward as a Moderator.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Pretty much spot on with everything you've posted, Bean Counter. Additionally, and I'm open to correction here, I understand that HMRI have now taken on the routine (ie non-operational) Health & Safety policing of Heritage Railways from the local HSE office so there is only one enforcing authority. That has to be a good thing.

    The Heritage Railway Association normally issue safety warnings when necessary but they need to be informed of this by any organisation having an 'incident'. That's the only way that these things can be formally disseminated amongst the Heritage Railway movement. As I haven't seen such a briefing from HRA, I can only assume that the MHR have not formally informed them. Not that they have any obligation to do so.
     
  16. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    If they had, why would you see the briefing? Confidentiality may come into it.... [-X
     
  17. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    Believe me, Steve is high enough up in at least one heritage Railway to have seen anything the HRA may have issued!
     
  18. Edward

    Edward Member

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    I don't see why confidentiality should come into it. There is no point in issuing a safety warning, if everyone is not told about it.

    For example, RAIB reports are all on line: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports.cfm

    Briefing out the lessons from incidents is commonplace in the wider railway industry, regardless of if it's your company involved or not. This can only be a good thing, and I can see no harm in extending it to the heritage sector.
     
  19. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    I assume that there will be internal reports (i.e. for nobody outside MHR) and if something arises that needs to be a safety warning, then that will be issued.
     
  20. Roger

    Roger New Member

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    Hang on, I thought I was the only self procaimed armchair expert on this thread! I never mentioned "Hydraulicking".
    That I am sitting in an armchair at present does not preclude me from having had some experience in engineering, like a lot of others from that field of work, it is no longer my main source of income. Speculation, why not, as long as it does not drift into accusation. The pictures of the damage were up in the public domain, I may well ponder their aesthetic merit, but at the end of the day, and it is, I just cant help speculating; How did that happen. Maybe a part of being Human. The explanations given started me thinking as they didn't to me fit the bill. So I give my veiw, Someone else may challenge that and so on. Eventually, an outside chance I know, but the explanation may eventually pop out.
    Apart from this how do people think split pins should be secured? Slightly spread or curled around the shaft they go through and the sharp ends tucked in?
    Cheers in goodly humour
    Rog
     
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