7822 'Foxcote Manor'

Thing is it isn't just one engine anymore, 5972(though I'll admit that benefited the budget), 48624, 7822, that Black Five....

If they want to paint loco's any old colour fine, but don't try and pass it off as preservation, as a recreation of the past when it just isn't, I don't want to sound like like a rivet counter, but when stuff looks nothing like it did at some point in the past, it ceases to be Heritage and becomes just an attraction like Drayton Manor, while it's true Joe Bloggs and 2.4 children won't notice the difference, how far going down this line of inauthenticity is acceptable ?, in 20 years will we be ripping the innards out of a Loco's boiler and replacing it with a hidden diesel or battery engine to drive the loco ?.

The GCR was set up to preserve a part of the Great Central route and showcase how a mainline in the steam age was, I'm not sure a Red 8F hauling MK1's in mock pullman livery dubbed with "Cromwell" markings is an accurate representation, while I don't begrudge the GCR trying to better it's position, I'm not sure bright liveries on everything is the way to do it, better service to the public in every aspect from the person selling the ticket to excellent food and service on the dining train is more likely to have an impact.

In the above im using the customer service purely as an example, the service I've had at the GCR to date has always been fine.

 

Our American friends must love watching a good ole British livery debate...

after all much of the working steam in the US carries the naming convention of the preserved "short line" who currently runs it....not the line it was historically built for.

Imagine if those early 60's pioneers like 30072 with "worth valley" on the sides became the norm today and all locos carried a colour scheme that suits the corporate scheme of the line that runs it.

 

As a member of the owning society of the loco, I can see why the board have chosen to have it in this livery.

The loco is in dire need of a good paint job. And if any of you know of the costs of doing such a thing, it isn't something you can just do on a whim. Especially as the money from steaming fees is being saved for the next overhaul, and the tender tyres are being replaced this month.

It all cost rather a lot of money. So, if someone where to give the group a cheque, to cover the cost of 2 repaints, then it isn't something that is just passed off.

What's better, having a loco that has a top notch, authentic paint job. But isn't able to run due to lack of cash for an overhaul. Or one that isn't quite in the right livery, but can continue into the future.

As Gav has said above, the red 8f has been a big hit with the general public. And, at the end of the day, they are the ones who pay for our hobby. Not the people who count rivets and get the paint charts out to check that it is the right shade of black, and the lining is the right thickness...

 

Whilst I don't really care about the colour of the paint in this case (its only a GW engine after all!) I'm intrigued by the implied logic here. Is blue paint cheaper than green or is it being suggested that the loco will earn more because it is blue? If te owning group want to earn lots of money they should offer it to the NYMR for the peak season, there's a looming loco shortage there and it would be likely to see a lot of use regardless of colour or standard of paint finish!

 

Its nit that it will earn more money while blue, its that the society doesnt have spare cash to spend on paint. Its current paint job isnt the best so it could do with a new one. So along comes a chap who says ill pay for it to go into blue for a while and then for the green re paint after. So that makes absolute sense. And I can imagine a few lines will try to hire her in blue. Who knows, a gala with blue tornado, king and manor, that would be good. Westsomerset autumn gala anyone? Then it can be with the 7f in blue also.

 

Anyway, whilst I remember. We have a new website for the society.

http://www.foxcotemanorsociety.co.uk/

Being run by one of the society members, and firemen, so look out for regular updates.

 

That's right, it's either pay for the new tyres, or pay for a paint job. Both need doing, but there is only cash for one. Then someone offers the cash to paint the loco, first the colour of his choice, then the colour of the society's choice.

At the end of the day the loco is a business, it has to make money to keep it running, so you don't turn down that sort of money when someone gives you it!

 

I can understand (and sympathise with) the commercial pressure.

But how far do you go? Suppose the supporter had a "What if" theory that maybe Stanier stuck to more Swindonian lines when moving to the LMS. Would you be happy if he/she said "here's a big wodge of money - but I want to see the loco painted black with LMS on the side"? What about if Rowntrees said "here's some money - but we want the boiler painted like a Smarties tube?" Afterall, modern trains carry external advertising and Cadbury's did a similar thing in Australia. So if it is the difference between the loco running or not, would you rule it out? And what is the GCR's view about having several locos in completely fictitious liveries? Do they have a preservation standards committee?

Ultimately, we have lots of preserved railways that were (mostly) closed by BR and have been reopened by enthusiasts. Initially, some railways tried to reopen as viable transport infrastructure, with their own identity - such as the KWVR painting its Ivatt in their own livery. One or two lines, such as the Lakeside and Havethwaite, or the Paignton and Dartmouth, still operate somewhat along those lines - and more power to them, it's great. But for most lines that wasn't viable, so then they transformed into trying to be living museums: illustrating the past, but by operating, rather than putting objects in glass cases. That mode of operation carries with it certain responsibilities - you can't just play fast and loose with preservation standards. Or at least, if you do, you are no longer a preservation society, but just a glorified theme park.

Just my opinion of course, YMMV...

Tom

 

If he wanted a face fitted to it as well would that have happened?

 

If it were to ensure the loco could go through the next restoration, then why not!

 

Like Tom, I can appreciate the economic implications which are sad but true. But Tom's post raises the point - how far do you go.

I've always advocated that these things should be assessed on a case by case basis.

 

And I presume you'd refuse to travel behind Tornado at Llangollen, or the West Somerset, or any of the other routes on which an LNER Pacific would never have been seen in the old days? Or indeed a Southern West Country/BoB at the NYMR? If authenticity of "heritage" is such an important concept...

I don't know why some people view history as being strictly pre-68. Every one of the last 45 years is another chapter of history. People are happy enough to accept an LMS Crab in red or black, despite the fact that for the first however many years of their existence, crimson lake was the default livery. Then a new operating company comes along (BR in that case) and decides on a new livery. So how is that any less valid or historically accurate than a preservation-era operating company (be it the KWVR with their USA tank in the 60s, or the owning group of Foxcote today) implementing another new livery? History is constantly being made. It's silly to cap it at 1968. In my opinion, of course.

 

Yes, although maybe in that case we should also stop calling ourselves "preservation societies". If you are preserving something, by definition it means something from the past, not inventing a new reality (or worse, misrepresenting a new reality as somehow a representation of the past).

I think there is a worrying trend away from a historical rigour - for example, the red 8f, blue Manor, blue SDJR 7F etc. For example, on the 5542 website, there is a comment:

(Source: 10 Year Overhaul)

Now, I'm no expert on GWR liveries, but visually it just looks all wrong, but worse, might to untrained eyes be taken as the reality of "how things were". It's a dangerous trend.

(And just to forstall the question before it arises: yes, I think Tornado - and other new build schemes - are preservation, but what is being preserved is a set of skills, rather than an object.)

Tom

 

No-one ever said that now, did they? In fact, I specifically stated in my first post on this subject "Now don't take that to mean that I think only engines right for a line should run on a line." I also said earlier "I've always advocated that these things should be assessed on a case by case basis."

Don't assume that an opposition to one thing automatically means an opposition to something else. In any circumstance, there is a line that if crossed will displease people - yes, the line will differ from person to person. Personally, a loco, if it looks right, I do not object to in an incorrect setting - Tornado at the modern Euston, say. But if the loco looks wrong then it doesn't matter what the setting is it will still look wrong.

Beautifully put. I applaud you. Yes, we are making history, and that is great, but we must remember what we are in this for - to evoke and recreate the past effectively within the constraints of material availability and safety. The history we are making should be but a mirror to the pre-68 history.

As with Tom, I too am pro-new builds. They may be new, but they look right, and as Tom says they preserve skills. You would rightly argue that a blue paintjob on a Manor preserves painting skills, but then it doesn't look right.

 

That's the post of 2013 so far, well said, please also look at my signature for my own view. Until we try something we don't know how well it will look, I for one think the red 8F looks spendid and is a nice change from all the black examples. There are a number of other locos at Llangollen that are in authentic liveries and Manors are one of the best represented examples of loco in preservation, with a working example just a few miles further south east which van be seen on authentic Great Western carriages as well. To me this looks like a good bit of business to get the loco repainted and divert hard earned funds to keep the loco running & come on, it is only a year!!

 

Do we know how long the Blue is to last & will it then return to green?

 

7822 in Blue? Go for it!

In terms of an eye catching livery to match Llangollens carmine and cream rake of coaches, plus the bonus for publicity purposes the livery can also provide a glimpse of "what might have been" had BR adopted the blue livery for ALL passenger locos. Yes it never happened, but it’s not like the loco is being painted in Intercity livery because “it might have been” is it? It could also pose a good earner for the Foxcote Manor Society from hiring the loco out to railways who would welcome a Manor in BR blue, thus helping to safeguard the locos future by saving up some more pennies for the next 10 yearly!

As explained here by various others, what is the harm in it being in blue for a year or so if it means the current worn BR green livery is repainted at no cost to the owners? This is the same society who we have to thank for saving this loco, restoring her and also managing to put her into her third decade of operation. The loco has worn BR green livery since first restored in 1988 and prior to a welcome change into BR black, the blue is a novel and interesting alternative chosen by those who have cared for this loco for many years. I would say this is their prerogative. As explained by RA&FC, the alternative would be for a very sorry looking BR green paintjob on a mechanically sound loco, or a fresh coat of BR black on a loco requiring new tender tyres!

We are all aware that blue is not authentic for the loco, but the general public rarely cares about such matters as long as there is a smart steam loco pulling their train. As for untrained eyes interpreting such livery changes as "how things were" being a dangerous trend- this is evident at every preserved line in some way or another! In the past various locos have been portrayed in “big four” livery despite being built by BR; 9466 and 61306 are examples of this, both of which have operated in the past at Llangollen in “incorrect” liveries without any complaint from the “misled“ general public! Perhaps the best example is 7827 “Lydham Manor”- for many years running in fully lined GWR livery despite being built by BR.

However, the enthusiasts who do know 7822 in blue is not authentic can either turn their noses up in disgust or smile at a novel, temporary, change- those who don’t know of the origins will not suffer in any way through being "misled" by incorrect portrayal of a loco in “false” condition.

While on the topic- does anyone want to complain about the loco having a non-original step under the front bufferbeam, modern graphite flange lubricators on the driving wheels or non-authentic steam heat pipework at the smokebox end of the loco…? Practicality and necessity can also breed “un-authenticity”!