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850 Lord Nelson

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Oct 25, 2007.

  1. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    It's a joke.

    I doubt it. It broke again on Saturday last.
     
  2. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Now tell the truth , it just ran out of oil and instead of risking travling up hill with a train , it ran down hill back in to alresford and waitted for oil
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Ran out of oil? Surely that is pure operator error?
     
  4. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    it happens, how many times have those of us who are or were on the footplate gone off shed with a half filled oil can and realised later in the day that we are running short the driver did the correct thing , better to drop down into the station and phone the depot to bring oil down than risk the loco
    quite a few times i had to jump off at ropley and refill the steam oil can whilst taking water with hydrostats you darnt run short with mechanicals its not so bad, you always remember to top up when you prepare, often when on 506, which was at the time the only hydrostat fitted engine, i used to had to make sure i had plenty of steam oil , even going to the point o filling the hydrostat then topping up the can before going off shed but i did get caught out once when i asked the trainee to re fill the can, he forgot to, and i chased the loco off shed with the oil can in hand 8-[
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It certainly does happen and the driver did the correct thing but it was still down to operator error. However, I was really responding to the fact that ralphchadkirk had made thecomment:
    and should have quoted this.
     
  6. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    I was just saying what I had been told :-#
     
  7. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Ralph, tis easilery done . I was stuck at Medstead when it happened but found out later when we got back on shed .
     
  8. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    5 years since your post.. your wish looks set to come true and both in steam !
     
  9. 5067

    5067 Member

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    Noting your comments on 850 in the Chelthenham thread, along with a couple of posts from MHR regulars, it could be construed that 850 will be retired / mothballed from further use, once it's current boiler ticket has expired. Is this the case? Seem's such a shame if it is. What went wrong over the years? Are ERPS no longer involved? Maybe Shoddy127 can comment, as if I recall correctly he was actively involved with 850 at some stage? A lot of questions!
     
  10. Shoddy127

    Shoddy127 Well-Known Member

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    As it stands at this moment in time and from my understanding as I write this, ERPS are still involved with 850 but now only in a small way as the MHR run and maintain the engine. The society is concentrating on the overhaul of E828 which is steadily progressing in the right direction at Ropley.

    However, ERPS haven't had a committee meeting for some while although one is planned for next month. The company directors have regular meetings but information from these meetings is somewhat hard to receive shall we say, hence the lack of updates on the ERPS website.

    As for being retired/mothballed, I have no information on this although it will be deeply sad if this was to be the case as it is some machine and I certainly have happy memories of it when we were taking it out on the mainline.
     
  11. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    I think it's a wait and see what happens to 850. There is still three to four years to run on the current boiler ticket and lots of things can change in that period of time. Maybe the MHR would want to overhaul the loco for another ten years of running on the MHR or maybe the NRM would like to display the loco in York. I think it's to early to say what will happen to the loco.
     
  12. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    Hi all,

    I am currently watching on BBC4 - Between the Lines Railways in Fiction and film. It showed a clip of Lord Nelson in the beginning and the loco had a box covering the front of the smokebox between the smoke deflectors? Just intrigued to what it is? I hope someone can solve this mystery for me?
    Thanks in advance.
    Andy
     
  13. 6024KEI

    6024KEI Member

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    Possibly a shelter for the poor mugs that were recording data during the loco trials in the 1950's - if it was old footage. I'm sure I've seen a photo somewhere of a GWR loco (Castle) with what looked like a garden shed with portholes mounted on the front buffer beam.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Like this:
    850 Indicator.JPG
    The testing engineers had a rather cramped journey couped up next to the smokebox. I think that this is a Midland compound but not definite.
    Indicating.JPG
     
  15. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    A lot depends on the actual state of the engine once its ticket is up, The boiler is vertually brand new, and should not need major repairs , but saying that, that was before its problems started, its going to be how much work is needed thats going to be the factor that decides if she goes back to York, Or gets another ten yearly , plus the need for another class 7 loco , in 3 to 4 years the standard 75 will be out, and i expect the standard tank will be nearly ready , will the MHR need Lord Nelson? Presonally, i would question the need, assuming that Swanage will be back then, Canpac , the standard mogol and the standard 4 75, should all be working by then, with the 80000 tank due by the time 850 bails out i would send her back to york and restore 33001 instead for a ten year spell on MHR
     
  16. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I was talking to a fellow member of my model engineering club who was a fireman on Nelsons at Eastleigh and he said they were terrible engines, very difficult to fire well because of the shape of the grate and very low brick arch. He couldn't understand why anyone who knew they would want to restore one and his view seems to have been born out in practice, but maybe the Bluebell will feel that they can getter better use out of it - as part of the national collection it ought to move around a bit rather than stay in one place.
     
  17. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    Thanks for the photos. I am pretty sure the box in front of the smokebox was actually between the smoke deflectors; rather than surrounding them. Surely these men recording data would not have been sitting there with the loco going at speed?? Does anyone know what they were recording and how??
     
  18. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    They would have been taking 'indicator cards', basically a graph showing cylinder pressures at each stage of the piston stroke, using a recording instrument (a barograph) attached to the cylinder.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    They are indicator shelters. By measuring the variation in pressure with piston stroke in the cylinders through one complete cycle, you get a diagram (so called "indicator diagram", hence the name "indicator shelter") in which the area traced out is proportional to the energy expended. If you also know the speed the locomotive is travelling, you get an measure of the power being generated by the cylinder (hence the term "indicated horsepower" - that is the power measured at the cylinder; it varies from the "drawbar horsepower" by an amount that is effectively a measure of how much power is absorbed by the locomotive just to power itself, before it starts doing useful work to power the train).

    In the days before modern remote instrumentation, the only way to do this was to connect a pressure measuring gauge directly to the cylinder which was connected to a pen; the card on which you took the diagram was then oscillated back and forth by a direct drive from the piston rod. Since you needed to change cards at some pre-arranged schedule (typically while a second observer was in the cab monitoring speed, cut off, water level etc), the only way to do this was to have some poor sap crouched behind the indicator shelter manually feeding new cards in as required.

    The main use of taking such diagrams was to investigate performance, particularly if the performance of a loco was considered in some way below what was expected. For example, you could see if the inside cylinders of a multi-cylinder loco were developing the same power as the outside ones; whether the power generated by the cylinder when steam was on one side of the piston was the same as when on the other side etc. Particular problems showed up as particular shapes on the indicator diagram: for example, poor valve and steam passage design might show up with steam finding it difficult to get into the cylinder or difficult to get out again etc. An experienced interpreter of such diagrams could thus use them to diagnose specific problems with a design which might otherwise only have been solved by a somewhat hit and miss process of supposition.

    A google search for "indicator diagram" or "pressure - volume diagram" will tell you more.

    Edit: here's a nice photo of Lord Nelson with indicator shelters fitted:

    File:SR Lord Nelson 850, with indicator shelter (CJ Allen, Steel Highway, 1928).jpg - Wikimedia Commons


    Tom
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    They would be there for the whole journey and taking 'indicator' cards of the cylinders, which are basically pressure/stroke diagrams. The loco would be going at whatever speed was required for the tests, which could be well over 60 mph. All part of a days work for some. The indicator diagram can tell you a lot about the valve events and what is happening in the cylinder. The horspower derived at the cylinders was known as 'indicated horsepower' because it was obtained using an indicator. Until the advent of the Testing Station at Rugby in the early 50's, doing this sort of thing would be fairly common on the main line railways. Indicating steam engines of all sorts (not just locomotives) was once quite common and most users of steam power would have an indicator. Indicating engines was still part of the curriculum when I was at university!
    I've often fancied doing some indicator tests on one of the NYMR locos. Nowadays, you'd probably jusy use a pressure transducer and a linear transducer and download all the info to a datalogger from the comfort of the first coach or even radio signals tramsmitted back to the office!

    edit: Tom has produced a much more detailed explanation whilst I was typing mine!
     

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