Any Questions?

very true, ok what if any main lines could accomodate a 45mph path, the reason i thought brighton line was because i thought they could loop it at some of the stations to allow timetabled services to go ahead, whilst the engines take water how far from brighton is the first place you could do it? i would have thought redhill then croydon .

 

With the Brighton Main, I guess the issue at 45MPH would be the double track section from Brighton to where it goes into 4 (Three Bridges ?), on the 4 track you could prob keep pace behind an all shacks on the slow, I think they do well to squeeze in a 60MPH path on this bit when turning off for Hove.

 

Getting a slot to stop at stations to pick-up passengers has been a problem for charters , even where a station has loops such as Haywards Heath.
I doubt you could stop for water at East or South Croydon since it would block the platforms for too long. The only accessible line for a tanker to park near by is the up fast at South Croydon, and Up Fast and the down slow at East Croydon.
Preston Park is used as a water stop on a regular basis. Three Bridges - loops south of the station have been used in the past but with the new depot being built access might be a problem now. Horley has been used but only late a night when the next drop off was Redhill( I expect access is the problem at the later).

 

I agree. Windsor and Eton Riverside might be an option, 70013 has been there on a private charter in the last 5 years. Some of the branches off the Western Mainline are single track according to my Rail Atlas and might be a problem even on weekends.

 

Tyseley to Norwich would be much easier after April. Ely West Curve is currently only signalled for movements towards Peterborough, but in April, full Bi-Di signalling will become available. That means that you can run from Peterborough to Norwich without going into Ely, running round, then going Tender First to Norwich. Stabling and turning at Norwich is fairly easy. NR Anglia are generally very supportive. (as long as you don't screw up their day job.) The resignalling of Ely West Curve also makes turning at Ely much easier for an Ely terminator, with no need to go to Manea or March to reverse.

 

The problem is that you can't get access to most of the branches at all. The branch trains tend to be on the branch all day and just run up and down on the 'One Train Working' arrangement. Other branches (Exmouth and Barnstable etc.) are fully pathed by service trains, with absolutely no capacity for additional services. Unfortunately, pathing (or lack of paths) is going to kill off many ideas for specials. I can guarantee it will only get more difficult in the future. One TOC was asked if they would cancel a service train to allow a special to run, and replace the service train with a bus. Unfortunately ORR restrictions do not allow this to happen, except for booked engineering works.

 

Norwich to me looks quite a sensible suggestion, providing 5043 fits in Norfolk.

 

I hope in the future to see again a pair of Class 4 Standard tanks on the mainline. I think that London to Southend or Brighton and the South Coast should then be possible and profitable. I know this is presently unlikely!

 

Yes I agree. One of the secrets of the success of Vintage Trains is simplicity and sticking to a winning formula. Please don't be tempted to copy some of the other tour companies with complicated and protracted itineraries which result in mega early starts and impossibly late finishes often without much substance in between eh Ben?

Don

 

Standard Tanks would stand a better chance as they would be at least 60MPH rated, having a pair mainline approved is another matter, it's a pity neither of the unrestored large prairies at Tyseley are owned by them as they'd prob be similarly rated.

 

Well 5043 has been to Ely, so we know it can deal with the fearsome Chettisham Bank!

 

If this tour is pathed thru Melton, Oakham & Stamford, my partner and i would be very interested, especially a pickup at Oakham or Stamford, makes a change not having to go miles for a stop.

 

So Ben, the Panniers, looks as though they are in demand and from reading this 3 suggestions stand out, get em to maybe York (for a bit of work oop 'ere), South Wales, or the London area. Now can you give a clue as to whether any of these can be considered OR......are we all just "wishful thinking".

 

Is that bridge restriction still in force at Haile ?, wondering if there would be any legs in an out and back tour to Cornwall over a weekend ?, maybe Newquay if Castles are still unable to reach Penzance.

 

Regrettably Frederick, tempting Ben will achieve absolutely nothing, what you actually have to do is to convince a number of us including Alastair, Michael and me, and of course Ben that any suggestion for railtours is likely to make a return. Whilst we all got into the business for the fun of running trains, that as a prime motive disappeared a long time ago, precipitated mainly by the costs of repairing, maintaining and operating steam loco's as thos costs went out through the roof. As the Managing Director of Vintage Trains, I am charged by the Trust's chairman (Michael Whitehouse) and the Trustees to maintain our operations in a solvent state. Over the last 15 years we have developed VT into a pretty solvent entity which has a sound financial basis. It wasn't easy but it was done to a model which Michael and I proposed almost 25 years ago. Part of this strategy depends on an inter-trading relationship with sister company Tyseley Loco Works which maintains and operates the fleet for VT, which in turn markets the trains. As the number of train's which we operate has increased, VT has become much more dependant on the full time TLW staff. Consequently VTL has evolved with a style of operation which suits this interlinking of the two companies, and their ability to minimise costs by the style of operations which we have adopted. This has not just happened, but has been the result of much hard work over many years, to say nothing of the support which many of you have given us as customers. We sincerely believe that we understand what we are doing, what works for us and what doesn't because we have spent (and still do spend) countless hours debating it. The team who run the company is not huge, and nor is the team of volunteers who make it happen week after week after week, and having said this it should be quite categorically stated that what we currently do is all that our staff can manage or indeed what we are prepared to do with our very precious spare time. We do occasionally have our own indulgences which sadly do little better than break even, but these are our prerogative to choose if for no other eason than it is a challenge there to be met. I suppose the prime examples have been The Bristolian, and the Caledonian 3 day epic crusade to Scotland to finally show the deprived citizens of Scotia what a proper loco looks like. All said we have previously looked endlessly at many of the suggestions which have appeared in this thread and we remain convinced that when all the costs, both apparent and hidden are taken into account there is little opportunity for us actually benefitting from all the effort necessary to run them. That is mainly why we have never done them and it is also the reason why 7752 never went to LT, the call on our time to go and do all the LT rules and PTS (bearing in mind that we already possess the Network Rail equivalents) together with the time involved in moving engines and operating them was just something that we were unable to resource without compromising the day job. It was really a case of what do you prefer to do, spend a day running The Cheltenham Flyer or four or five days prepping and running a shuttle from Moorgate to Paddington?

With regard to the Panniers it is our experience in costing operations that it is always the transit costs and the relatively limited ability to charge sensible fares when you get there which always kills any proposal to outbase them and operate in areas such as London.

Unlike some of our competition, we tend to carefully tailor our tours to take account of available resources rather than the sort of tours where extravagant itineraries have led to demands on train crew and other resources, which have stretched certain major TOC's almost to breaking point. As a for instance our railtour which has just won Mike Notley's tour of the year for 2013 needed only 1 driver, 2 firemen, and a guard - just 4 men, compared to some of the extravaganza's which require two or maybe three 5-man crews plus maybe 2 or 3 diesel drivers. These limits on resources extend to our own people and put simply we do not have sufficient spare people to suddenly start running overnight positioning moves or living away from home for days or even weeks. Whizzing up and down the motorway to Southall or York has costs particularly as every hour spent doing so comes at a cost to TLW's turnover reducing profitability there; while we are charging around, we are not doing any contract work. It is also sad to report that these sort of operations hold very few attractions for any of us.

A similar argument applies to outstationing engines at other sites, as it comes at a significant cost in having to spend several hours travelling to undertake the sort of regular maintenance which can be fitted in between other duties when they are in the shed at Tyseley, hopefully it can be seen that maintenance costs suddenly take a turn for the worse as the overheads increase due to the daily travelling costs (think 5 hours wages per day, £100 travelling costs and subsistence). I suppose the final nail in the coffin for this sort of thing is that we simply do not like abandoning our loco's at other depots or railways, we like to have them where we can keep an eye on them, others may disagree, but they are ours, that is the way we like it, and it seems to work for us.

We are of course always grateful for the interest which many of you take in our operations and indeed to those of you whose interest extends to travelling with us, and it is always interesting to see debates such as this one on what might be done. Many of the suggestions might not be an economic proposition for us, but it is interesting to see that we were not far wide of the mark in debating many of the suggestions made herein, which are obviously of interest to others out there, even though we at VT can't make the numbers stack up. Hopefully you will be able to recognise our position on this, we are not deliberately pouring cold water on ideas, we are always open to suggestions but we do have to ensure that we remain solvent. And I finally have to say that we still do very much enjoy what we do, but it is very different enjoyment to the expectations which we had when we started out a very long time ago.

Happy New Year to you all
Bob

 

With the panniers could we get someone to sponsor a road based trip to Yeovil Junc for the locos then do a summer season of top and tail shuttles Yeovil - Weymouth - Yeovil. There are two return paths available as they get used currently by tours and the associated ECS run to from the Junc for servicing.

Appreciate difficulty is then also getting coaching stock to Yeovil but possibly doable. Perhaps start morning train at Bristol with the Western. Change to steam at Pen Mill, do the 2x returns with the panniers then the Western back to Bristol in the evening. Alternative would be same idea but start from London with the main train.

 

If you read Bob's post you'll understand why the answer will be no.

 

First a grateful thanks to Bob Meanley for his fulsome response and a Happy New Year to him and ALL the Tyseley team !

In fairness as both an occasional customer and linesider for some of the northern VT trips I fully appreciate the background costs which restrict what the Tyseley Team can do and identifies the differences between what they want to, and what they can, do with their existing resources.

That said I think it only fair to add that some of the suggestions were made partly 'tongue in cheek" to test the sort of interest there was for railtours; having travelled on - and enjoyed - the Paired Panniers to Melton Mowbray I felt there must similar areas around the country where possible scenarios might be possible. That for London Suburban was made with the thought that the VT / WCRC partnership with a possible base at Southall might ease resourcing to a point of viability whilst the Harrogate Circle was made with the thought that some NRM involvement would similarly ease resources whilst both would surely involve people familiar to VT and who share the same respect for the locos and concern for maintenance and operating standards.

That said a dream is still only a dream and - at least - it helped pass the Christmas holiday by providing an alternative to the interminable repeats that punctuated this years programme selections from the TV programmers.

As such your detailed response has brought us all back to reality and we can but thank you for your past tours and look forward to your 2014 tours programme.

A final word - the Panniers approaching Nuneaton on the chord en route to Melton Mowbray on 1 December from the train.