Austerity WD197/Army 197 'Sapper'

This is a bit of a long shot, but I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with finding any photos of Austerity WD197/Army 197 Sapper (works No. 3797) in its Army green livery - either in WD service or after delivery into preservation - before it was painted RVR blue and became Kent & East Sussex Railway No.25 Northiam.

It's for a modelling project and I am especially looking for details of the nameplate and style/size of WD/Army numbering on the saddle tank and buffer beams.

I have so far only been able to find one very poor quality image, which shows very little detail (the leftmost of these two photos http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/QN_20_08.htm) It seems WD197 Sapper was rather camera shy.

Note that this not the same Austerity that is currently named Sapper at the East Lancashire Railway, (that's WD132/works No. 3163 and has a different style of nameplate)

Many thanks in advance to anyone who may be able to help.

 

By the way, if it helps, I know the loco was at the Bicester Military Railway. I don't know where else it operated before preservation at the KESR, though.

 

There is a b/w photo of 197 at Bicester in 1974 at the link below. By that date it was only in use on special occasions.
http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/QN_20_08.htm
EDIT OOPS: Just realised you'd already posted that link. Silly me

 

Reference for this is 'Continent, Coalfield and Conservation' by Lambert and Woods an IRS publication.

Wd 197 delivered to Longmoor in 1953 and immediately stored. In 1955 went back and forth between Longmoor and Bicester but seems mostly stored. At Longmoor in 1957 then Bicester again in 1960. At Longmoor in 1965 and used in the 'Great St Trinians Train Robbery' painted black as '68011'. January 1968 named 'Erroll Lonsdale'. To KESR 20/6/70.

 

197 was never named Errol Lonsdale - 196 was. 197 was named Sapper and did not reach the KESR util later in the 1970s being the last army steam loco to be sold out of service (the two remaining after that were eventually given away).

 

Yes you're right. I was looking at the previous entry for 196. Must have skipped up the page! Sorry for the confusion.

Correct entry should be
LMRLY 3/53
Stored Bicester 10/55
Stored LMRLY ?/57 but later 7/57 in use
Bicester 7/57
Stored Kineton 3/58
Bicester 10/59
In use 1/64 then stored but used for special events.
Named 'Sapper' by 5/65
Steamed for specials 4/72 and 6/73
Out of use for retuning 5/77
Loaned to KESR 9/77
Back to Bicester for repair before sold to KESR in 10/79.

 

If not already done it might be worth going onto the Industrial Railway Society site and forum and ask if anyone has any photos, maybe from the special steamings.

 

Indeed. I regularly haunted the KESR as a kid and remember seeing it at Rolvenden not long after delivery, still in army green. I also - just - remember Errol Lonsdale there. So I'm recreating a few childhood memories by modelling 197, which will keep the forthcoming KMRC model of 196 company.

Good idea, many thanks mickpop. I have since found one more pic of 197 at Bicester on Flickr, but it's the usual 3/4 view and so doesn't give much about the nameplate away. However it does reveal that the number was cream/yellow and it was ARMY 197 as opposed to WD 197. Every little helps.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128839707@N03/20141185318/in/photolist-fQk2RB-od6zMD-EpuaA5-wFNQFQ

 

The Bicester Military Railway ,Oxford Publishing 1992 by E R Lawton and Major M W Sackett,shows on page 78 , a B/W photo' of Army 197 Sapper .Its nearly a side view showing the name plate which is straight with a badge above. No date but photo'd with Thomas Hill Vanguard 4whl diesel 252.That wasn't built until 1977.It also states that 197 was the last steam loco used at Bicester.

 

I have quite a few pictures of the loco taken on several visits to Bicester in the early 1970s. In addition to the dates mentioned above by @mickpop, it also worked specials in 1/70 and 10/71, the latter a 10 coach excursion off BR metals that also covered the Long Marston Military Railway: http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/70s/711016mn.html

The pictures below are the ones that show the details you are looking for most clearly. The second one is a blow up of the detail from the larger first image, but unfortunately is not particularly clear even though it's a high res scan. The badge above the nameplate appears to be the classic Sapper badge but with a colour combination not seen elsewhere. The black and white picture is a low res scan, but if it would be helpful I could do a higher res scan which might show more detail than the colour image.

Incidentally, there were no numbers carried on the buffer beams. I assume you are aware of the additional badge on the cabside.

 

That's fantastic, 5098 - exactly what I need! Thank you so much.

By the way it's interesting how the white wheel rims highlight that the driving wheels aren't equidistant. I had always merely assumed that all six coupled locos had driving wheels that were evenly spaced (it had never occurred to me to think otherwise), but on closer inspection it seems that very few classes, in fact, are.

 

Sorry, I missed this comment first time. Am I right in thinking that the cabside badge is the Royal Corps of Transport crest? As carried by some other Army Austerities.

 

It looks very much like it in this shot, though again the colour scheme looks to be slightly different from the one normally used, and indeed different from the one used on the diesel on the left.





Incidentally, referring to your earlier comment about the spacing of the wheels, there are some excellent line drawings, as well as a very comprehensive history of the Austerities and their antecedents, here: http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/23/18in_Hunslets.htm

 

That makes for very interesting reading!

Many thanks for all your help, chaps - a set of custom etched nameplates and RCT crests are now on order, along with 'as close as I think I'm going to get' decals from a military modelling supplier.

Now... here's another challenge!

I'm on the trail of images of two further KESR Austerities in their former lives... Nos 23 and (the now departed) 24. I haven't found anything on the web so far.

According to this interesting blog post:

The WD logbook for No. 23 shows it was put into service at Bicester in 1956 as WD 191 Black Knight, generally repaired in 1957/58, stored in May 1962 at No. 1 Engineers Supply Depot, Long Marston, before final transfer in December 1967 to No. 1 Railway Group, Royal Corps of Transport at Shoeburyness. There it worked for only nine months before again being put into store. From Shoeburyness it was sold out of Army use, arriving at Rolvenden in February 1972.

No. 24 saw service at Bicester as WD 200 before transfer back to Longmoor and then went to Shoeburyness. Upon disposal it was privately purchased for use on the K&ESR, arriving in January 1971.

Can anyone help point me towards images of their WD/Army service, please?