Avro Shackleton WR963

Sorry for a Lancaster question on the Shakleton thread, but i have a few questions as a newcomer to this subject.

1. How many airmiles are left in the BMMF Lanaster frame?
2 Should the BMMF lancaster come to the end of flying life on its airframe could it be swapped for another eg the one at Hendon.
3. Other than cost what others could be made flyable again.
4. Are there any other complete Shakletons surviving?

Thanks for any answers in advance.

 

1). Don't know, but I believe it had a main spar replacement not long ago which must have given a significant extension

2) that would be a big mistake IMHO. The Hendon Lanc has a significant wartime provenance and was then preserved very shortly after the war. Thus in fixtures and fittings, patina etc, it is as close as we will ever get to having a tangible connection to a genuine battle veteran. Preparing it for flying would inevitably strip away a lot of that authenticity. If the BBMF Lanc were ever to be permanently grounded, there are better candidates to replace her as a flying aeroplane, notably the Lincs Aviation Centre Lanc.

4). Several. In this country there is a Shackleton at Duxford as I recall, one in MOSI, Manchester and one at Newark - there may well be others.

Edit: http://www.avroshackleton.com/Surviving_Avro_Shackletons.htm

Tom

 

I don't think an aircraft's life is measured by "how many miles remaining?" Various components are lifed through usage (number of hours flown/operated) or through their Fatigue Index (FI) which is based on measuring the forces going through the structure. In theory, an aircraft flown smooth and level is going to last longer that one that is "robustly" chucked about the sky. I'm sure a proper aircraft engineer will explain it better.

 

1. A recent statement from the BBMF said that at current usage she should be good until 2050.
2. No idea.
3. One already flyable in Canada with another under restoration. Just Jane at East Kirkby also on her way back to flying condition albeit slowly. As for any of the others in museums, more or less anything is possible if money is no object but I can't say how realistic a project any of them would be.
4. Yes. http://www.avroshackleton.com/Surviving_Avro_Shackletons.htm

 

Some good answers thank you, i did not know that so many Shakletons still survived and a shame that 1716 was lost on its way to Britain for an appearance at Farnbrough. I have just looked it up on Google Maps in the Shara Desert. I will try to find if there is more published on this, it was a great loss glad all the crew got back safe.

I can understand the need to keep the Hendon Lancaster as origional as possible.

Off to buy some books and extend the shelves in my libruary.

 

Wow! I'm feeling rather humbled that my tentative question has lead to such interest before I've even begun!
I'll try and keep up with any questions that haven't already been covered as much as I can, and I'm now going to work on a more detailed introduction to what our project is all about as it's had quite a prolonged history in the making, with much more to come of course
On our website, which incidentally I run for the Trust, I will be placing a link back to this thread so that this forum gets some more interest as it seems we all have diverse interests not restricted to one particular field of preservation

 

Right then, my attempt at covering the history of our project without crashing the forum servers...lol

The Aircraft:

The Avro Shackleton started life in the 1949 after Avro's Chief Designer decided that in order to meet the requirements for a new Air Ministry spec, it would be prudent to modify an existing well-proven design rather than start afresh at huge expense. Taking the basic family evolution of Manchester / Lancaster / Lincoln bombers, the Shackleton used a lot of the existing structure designs but widened, longer, and taller in order to accomodate the new internal equipment required by the Air Ministry. In order to give the new airframe a long range ability, Rolls Royce Griffon engines were to be used, which although remarkably more powerful than the Merlin - the ability to cruise for long periods at lower power settings gave much better reliability. By using contra-rotating props on them, the extra power could be harnessed without having a huge prop arc...
The early days of the Shackleton were not without their problems, but gradually they became a common site all round the globe with the RAF's presence in many countries. Maritime Patrols were the primary role, but the ability to carry both cargo and passengers proved useful too...
The Shackleton was also able to carry quite a formidable weapons load if required. Originally designed with Rear / Mid Upper & Fwd Turrets for guns, only the Fwd & Mid Upper Turrets ever made it into service for a period. Underneath, the cavernous Bomb Bay could carry conventional bombs up to the huge Tallboy, and any conventional size bomb load too; Torpedos; Depth Charges (including the Lulu Nuclear Depth Bomb). Even a fully fitted Lifeboat was designed to be carried too! The obvious Avro lineage gave the RAF a design that was already known to be solidly built and reliable, with the potential to see service for many years....

Well that planned service period was intended to come to an end in the 1970's as fatigue life took it's toll on a lot of existing airframes. However, Avro's clever answer was to simply rebuild select airframes with new wing spars etc, extending their life indefinitely! The RAF was the main customer of course, although the South African Air Force flew their own slightly different versions which were also operated by the RAF alongside older examples. These looked different primarily because they were using a noseleg undercarriage rather than the taildragger design of previous versions. Along with extra supplementary jet engines to improve take off performance, the surprise for Avro was that the newer versions were outlived by the older ones! Excess fatigue life consumption and other problems meant that when the RAF asked for a new variation capable of adopting the Airborne Early Warning role (AEW) prior to brand new Nimrod aircraft coming into service, Avro's ability to simply rebuild old ones was used to refurbish a select number of the best older ones, which came into service in the early 1970's as a stop-gap measure.... That lasted until 1991 - quite a lot longer than planned

Our Aircraft WR963:

WR963 first flew in 1954 and saw service in various squadrons throughout it's life as an MR2 version. In 1971, she was one of the "chosen few" to be sent for modification into the new AEW version, complete with the familiar bulbous radar housed under the nose. That radar was quite remarkable as it was an American design from WW2, and laterly fitted into Royal Naval Gannet aircraft before the UK Carrier fleet became history! So by now, we had a 1950's airframe with 1940's radar, operating until the early 1990's
Sadly, the inevitable happened, and the RAF finally gave up on a planned Nimrod AEW aircraft and bought the American AWACS type now known as Sentry in current service. The remaining 5 Shackletons including WR963 were flown to RAF Waddington ready to be auctioned off to the highest bidder....
Two examples (WR963 and WL790) were purchased and flown to Coventry Airport in July that year. Initial plans were for WL790 to fly on the UK Airshow circuit and WR963 act as a spares source.... That plan did not work after the CAA refused to allow this to happen, so instead WL790 flew on a permit to the USA where it remained on the airshow scene for a while before finally retiring to it's current Museum home in Pima. WR963 however was not simply forgotten about, and a small team of volunteers started what has become a very prolonged but methodical project to breath life back into what was effectively a spares donor airframe. Amazingly - in 2008, WR963 had reached the stage where she could move under her own power again, and went for a high speed taxy down the runway at Coventry! That huge leap gave hope that the impossible dream could be achieved at last... In recent years, the team has grown in numbers as more people (like me) realised that actually seeing a Shackleton fly was no longer a pipe dream as many had thought before. After a huge amount of backroom research, it was finally established along with the co-operation of the CAA that previous knowledge of the flying possibilities was incorrect, and the aircraft was granted a UK Civil registration (G-SKTN) as we could prove that there was life left in the Old Grey Lady after all! Much work remains to be carried out, including a vital Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) check on certain wing spar areas to show that there are no concerns about fatigue life. We also have a lot of help from the guys at the BBMF (who happen to know a thing or two about the same wing spar issues as their Lancaster actually uses old-stock Shackleton spars). Our aircraft has been getting plenty of exercise in recent years, with regular ground runs, as well as the odd taxy around the airport Keeping it working helps WR963 stay healthy, and despite her advanced years she is actually rather reliable! The odd tantrum shows itself, but we have a dedicated team on hand to sort those out

The Team:

The Shackleton Preservation Trust is made up of a team of diverse experience and ability, who both maintain the aircraft, and administer the Trust's pledge to act as a flying memorial to all the RAF crews from 1949 - 1991, as well as an educational tool to esnure future generations know of her role, and inspire future engineers too hopefully The Engineering Team work most Saturdays at Coventry keeping WR963 able to perform her regular ground runs which bring in the crowds too, as well as vital revenue! Amongst our Engineers we are incredibly lucky to have a few ex-RAF Shackleton Groundcrew, who delight in passing on their years of experience to thse of us who gaze in wonderment at all that 1940's / 50's technology We happily welcome new members onto the team who don't mind rolling up their sleeves to work with all that piston-engined power, coupled with strange aircraft materials such as canvas & dope, woodwork, and leather too! Even my own previous RAF background on those modern Jet engines proved nothing when it came to removing those massive contra-rotating props on a cold winter weekend or three, but it didn't stop me growing rather fond of this wonderful piece of English Heritage

Well if I haven't bored you all and you're still awake, I have also chosen a few select images from the archives to illustrate how far the project has come since WR963 arrived at Coventry in 1991:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hunterxf382/albums/72157661141075302

And finally, if all this has enticed you to want to come and get to know WR963 and our team even closer, we are having a bit of an event on Saturday December 5th...
Along with our neighbouring Nimrod, we are having a Sub Hunter Dusk Run, which has limited places available to come and see us at Coventry If you have never heard the infamous "Griffon Growl" at high rpm, never mind the glowing exhaust stubs and spitting flames, you can't miss this! The Nimrod's RR Speys will attempt to waken the area too, and it promises the chance for some awesome photo opportunities as shown on our Event Poster:

 

It is mainly down to the aircraft being classified as a "Complex" type by the CAA regulations. The manufacturers support was the only way forward when the return-to-flight project started, and once that was withdrawn, it signalled the end as far as CAA regulations were concerned.

 

Another issue with Nimrods was their sudden withdrawal over safety concerns after a tragic accident after air-to-air refueling. Aside from being a "complex" type as well, the safety concerns effectively killed off any chance of a return to flight ever.

 

Well, yes, sort of. It's more down to the fact that nobody is capable of zero-timing Olympus engines, so once RR decide enough is enough, it's game over and the paper chain above is indeed broken. XH558 RTF was only ever possible because the RAF handed over a stack of zero-time engines with her when they sold her. Same reason Concorde won't fly again - there are no airworthy engines and no way to produce any. Piston engines are well understood and there are multiple outfits around the world capable of producing airworthy zero-time power units. The costs of creating a complex 'vintage' jet engine servicing/(re-)manufacturing facility have so far proved prohibitively costly - RR aren't interested, and I don't really see who else would do it.

On the airframe front, a lot depends on the period in which the aircraft was designed - if fatigue life allocations were not part of the design, then you can keep rebuilding, Grandfather's axe style (finance permitting I guess) as long as you can prove you are performing like-for-like replacement - at least that's how it was explained to me by someone who knows about these things. It gets harder as the aircraft get bigger, but once you get to some time in the 50s, fatigue life became part of the design process and you are then obliged to satisfy those regulations. WW2 warbirds are pretty straightforward - I suspect the Shackleton may well fall in this category, being a Lancaster derivative.

Not sure about various early jets from the late 40s/50s - either they are all on the clock (low hours when decomissioned?), or perhaps some pre-date fatigue index design criteria. Presumably engines are simpler and can be refurbished with suitable expertise, but not an area I have any specific knowledge on.

 

Haven't delved that deep into their site but this firm in Aberdeen can overhaul Avon turbines.

 

I remember doing some Observation training at Coventry back in 2007 and having the privilege to have a good look round the Shackleton before the engines were fired up. An awesome sound especially at close quarters! At that stage it was mentioned that the plan was to get her airworthy and I have been waiting for news on the project since.

Glad to hear that the project is alive and kicking and the old girl will hopefully again grace the air one day.

 

Wot no link! Found the site, but looks like industrials only to me. There's an aviation museum which can apparently do Avons (and Goblins), and possibly an outfit in Canada. I guess the Avon is simple enough that it can be done (early 50s technology again if I recall correctly).

RR still make industrial Avons, but I doubt there is much commonality of parts...

 

Thank you for your reply comments - back in 2007 there was some notion about airworthiness but that came to nothing eventually for various reasons. The Trust in it's current form managed to look a little deeper into the viability, and once the truth about fatigue life etc was established - that's when the current fully researched step forward took place. We knew it was a monumentally huge step to take, but the contacts with the various authorities and their positive feedback resulted in the careful planning given now, and being methodical about what we do. None of us are willing to rush this through - it's been a project of devotion for a number of years already, by an expanding group of dedicated volunteers who are realistic and wary all of the time. We learn, we overcome, and we enjoy it! You will see it fly

 

I remember seeing Shacklebombers transiting up & down the East Coast regularly in the late 70s & early 80s. I know there have been examples still flying in South Africa, but it's a fair trek to see one! I look forward to seeing this one back in the air, having 'slipped the surly bonds of Earth', as it were

 

That's right, the last airworthy example in SA hasn't flown for a number of years sadly, they ran out of available crew and since then it has only made infrequent ground runs to try and keep the airframe in reasonable condition etc. Not impossible to see theirs flying again, but our trust is in touch with them of course, and aware of their situation.

Sent from my Z160 using Tapatalk

 

Thanks for the update on the SA situation, chaps. All the more reason to cheer on this project then

 

Still places available for this event if any member wishes to come and see what a spectacle the Shackleton is when running at dusk

WR963 Dusk Run Poster by Pete Buckingham, on Flickr

 

Shackletons were a very familiar sight in North Cornwall during the 1950's and 60's. RAF St. Mawgan and St. Eval flew them.