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Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. 34098

    34098 Member Account Suspended

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    sounds about right think i last went down 2001
     
  2. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    The Bluebell are in the same situation with out of use loco has the MHR are. With regarding locos being kept out side. It's just one of the evils of railway preservation we can't keep every think under cover.
     
  3. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Two other engines I would love to see back in action beforetoo long are 75027 and Blackmoor Vale. I see that the Bulleid Society are starting obtaining parts for the new firebox (see 1st jan entry on Bulleid Society | Latest News ) but it's going to be an expensive business raising the funds - not to mention the need to get Sir Archie back in traffic first. Why I have added these engines to the general Bluebell wish list is that both have strong associations with some big celebrations coming up in the not too distant future. Blackmoor Vale is the only surviving Spam Can which lasted in service until the end of Southern Steam in July 1967, and 75027 saw out BR steam the following year. I am sure there will be some big commemorations lined up in 2017 and 2018 to mark the 50th anniversaries of these sad events, and it would be a shame if two such iconic survivors were sitting in a siding unable to play their part.
     
  4. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Not sure I'd go quite so far as to call 75027 "iconic"...certainly her role in the end of steam was far more low-key than the "15 Guinea" engines. In any case, I'm sure there will be at least one other member of each class in steam in 2017/8 that can take their identities; the real ones can still be used for static display and photographic line-ups.
     
  5. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Reading the BB web site tonight I see 80151 has now been retired from service. I wonder when we will see her enter service again? With any luck we could see 80100 and 80151 in service together.

    Blog: What's New at the Bluebell Railway?
     
  6. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Agreed that 75027 was not as high-profile at the end of steam as, say 70013, 44871, 45305 or 45110, but it did work at least one "farewell to steam" railtour (with 75019) and was widely photographed on the Swinden ballast workings. I guess I'm a bit biased with 75027 - I remember visiting the line when I was only 11 and 75027 was the biggest engine on the line at the time. It promptly became my favourite member of the Bluebell fleet and although it shares that honour with several other locos now, I've had a rather a soft spot for it ever since.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    It's interesting how times have moved on. At the time she was preserved, many people thought the railway (which at that time was only 5 miles long) to be mad preserving such a huge engine - remember the loco fleet at that time consisted almost entirely of Victorian and Edwardian tank engines (*). Roll on 44 years and 75027, while definitely still a "large" engine in our classification, would definitely be seen as at the "smaller end of large", if that makes sense, and certainly is of a type that will be very useful for an extended, 11 mile line hauling far greater number of passengers. We have a lot to be thankful for with regard the foresight of the early members of the society!

    (*) Footnote: I think in 1968, the operational fleet was Captain Baxter, Stepney, Fenchurch, Bluebell, Primrose, the NLR tank, the Adams Radial, Birch Grove, the Dukedog and the C class - nothing bigger than a class 2 and only two tender engines (and only one non-leaking tender, but that is another story...)

    Tom
     
  8. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    I don't think the C class had arrived in 1968, and some of the "operational" fleet were certainly in a rather tired state then. By 1969, the Adams radial tank and Stepney were out of action, and Birch Grove, if still working (and I can't remember whether it was the case) was on its last legs. As you say, it's a very different Bluebell line now - indeed, 80151, which is after all essentially a tank version of 75027, is seen as an ideal engine for the line. The extension to Kingscote makes the engines work harder. Even Sir Archie +6 made a good sound on the climb up from Horsted Keynes to the tunnel when I travelled behind it shortly after it returned to service a couple of years ago. However, one of the features about the Bluebell which I like (having known the line for over 40 years) is that although larger engines are required in peak season, there is a determination to maintain a role for the smaller engines, and that there is also great enthusiasm for ensuring the old pre-grouping non-corridor coaches such as the Chesham set - which epitomised the line in its first decade - still see regular use. Some heritage lines which started later and which have not been able to acquire any pre-grouping locos or carriages can do a good job in taking you back to the BR era of the 1950s and 1960s, but the Bluebell can offer a cameo of railway history on wheels from the late Victorian period to the end of steam - indeed, it has recently added some further examples to its already excellent collection of non-corridor pre-grouping stock. The Brighton Bogie first in particular is a real treat to ride in. (I must have made some 50 journeys at least on the Bluebell Line, and always try to travel in a pre-nationalisation coach if possible. Only twice have I ever had no option but to travel in a Mk I.)

    I hope that the opening of the East Grinstead extension, making the line 11 miles long and including a further stiff climb from Kingscote up to the viaduct will not change the railway's ethos, and that pre-grouping locos and stock will continue to play their part alongside the Maunsell tender engines, Bulleid Pacifics and BR Standards which have made their home at the Bluebell since 1968.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes sorry, meant "fleet", not "operational fleet". The C must have arrived about that time, but maybe not quite there in 1968. There was a period in the early 70s when the Dukdog worked, but had a tender that leaked like a sieve; and the C had a decent tender but the engine didn't work. So the C class tender was coupled to the Dukdog (thus forming an engine and tender combination derived from three engines!) to form what was nicknamed the "C Dog"...

    It was also talked about recently on the Bluebell yahoo group that the then owners of the H class (at that time based in Ashford) came to the Bluebell to see if it would be suitable for their engine. They had a footplate ride on the Adams and promptly decided against it, so it was not until 1976 that the H class came. Apparently, the ride on the Adams was awful as a result of various modifications that had been made to ensure it got round the corners on the Lyme Regis branch. Shortly after she was sent away to (cough cough splutter Swindon) for a thorough overhaul, and when she came back she rode much better.

    With regard small engines and vintage carriages: that is why the railway will always be special to many people, myself included. Personally, I can't understand why people wish to recreate the BR era (especially the later steam era), a singularly godforsaken period in our railway history, but each to their own I suppose. The current Locomotive and Rolling Stock Director is definitely rather partial to smaller engines (and has the business case to back up that decision), so I imagine the current policy will continue at least until such time as he steps down. That said, an 11 mile line with long sections at 1:75 and even 1:60 will certainly puts a strain on the smaller engines; more so if passenger numbers grow as is hoped with the extension to EG. More vintage carriages would certainly help, as they have a greater number of seats per ton...

    Tom
     
  10. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    The "C" Class was still at Ashford for the open weekend there, Easter 1970. It was in steam with the "O1", while the "H" Class and Black 5 No 45110 were on static display.

    At that time 75027 was only the second tender loco on the Bluebell. The "C" did not arrive until August that year and developed a hot box on its trial run. It did not finally enter traffic until summer 1975, but was then still only the third tender loco to operate on the line. How times have changed!

    Peter James
     
  11. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Ah, the C Dog! That brings back memories of my rather brief but happy times as a teenage volunteer in the Loco Department - and also of a rather quick run back from Horsted on the last train of the day with a certain ex-Three Bridges driver in charge! The C Dog combination certainly solved a motive power shortage during the 70s

    But what choice did a preserved line if it didn't start operations until the late 1970s or later still? Mk 1 carriages were the only carriages available by then, and if the only steam engines available for such a line were ex-Barry wrecks, quite a few of them could only legitimately run in a BR livery. Actually, I think that for Southern fans, the BR era has a few good points. In the 1930s, the LMS and LNER did those remarkable high-speed runs while GWR had the Cheltenham Flier and the Bristolian. The Southern, on the other hand, marked the 1930s with widespread electrification. Maunsell produced some very good engines, but Southern steam in the inter-war years never had the chance to shine in the same way as the locos from the other companies. By contrast, Southern steam put up some pretty amazing exploits in the BR(S) era with the Bulleid pacifics. The first mile-a-minute schedule on the Southern (Waterloo to Salisbury with the down ACE) didn't come in until the 1950s. True, that is only one side of the coin; there were the widespread branch line closures in the 1950s and 1960s, and with the exception of Salisbury (and later Eastleigh) sheds, the steam locos were not cleaned very often, so consequentially the BR era we see recreated today is a very sanitised version of the real thing.

    However, there is also another reason for the popularity of the BR era: for many influential people in the railway heritage world today, it's all they can remember. To have memories of the golden days of the Big Four in the 1930s, you have to be 80 years old or more, while to enjoy clear recollections of the pre-grouping companies, you've got to be....Bernard Holden!.
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I was being a little facaetious! But certainly I think the 1960s were a pretty drab time with lots of unloved steam, so strange to think of lots of people holding it in esteem. Even stranger that some people want to recreate the general air of engines being uncared for - dirty engines, chalk scrawlings and all. That said, I'm young enough that my early railway memories don't quite include mainline steam, so I suppose a much older period holds more fascination as being something very distant - it's about trying to imagine myself into my ancestors shoes, rather than trying to recreate my own youth. I wonder if in ten or twenty years time, that will become the predominant interest of people - in other words, once everyone who can remember BR steam first hand has gone to the great engine shed in the sky, whether there will be a broadening out of what is the predominant interest?

    With regard carriages, it's not quite true what you say. Most pre-grouping carriages had gone, but in the 1970s there were still reasonable number of grouping era carriages (and even a few pre-grouping) available, often in departmental service. To take one (Bluebell) example, LSWR carriage 1520 wasn't withdrawn from service until 1969. So I'm sure plenty of pre-Mark 1s were available to groups setting up in the 1970s had they wanted them. I suspect the reasons are more down to new societies being relatively impoverished when starting up, and Mk 1s gave them coaches that could be pressed straight into service with minimal work, saving cash to be used elsewhere. It's also true that, until fairly recently, carriages have always been poor relations to the engines in preservation terms.

    Tom
     
  13. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Yes, You're right, I'm sure, and it is encouraging how many lines in that category are now taking a more active interest in pre-nationalisation stock . The NYMR's teaks came largely via departmental service, and the WSR, Mid-Hants, Swanage and Great Central are all looking to put pre-nationalisation coaches into service. Most encouraging.

    It is interesting to hear the views of those who are too young to remember BR steam. I'm a bit older, but my recollections are only very vague as I was at primary school when steam ended. I do believe that if the most ardent BR-era enthusiast could suddenly be transported back in time to the 1930s or earlier, they would be absolutely transfixed by what they saw. if time travel was a reality, while I would love to stand on Winchfield Station circa 1965-7 and watch the Bulleid Pacifics thundering through, I would also like to go back to somewhere like Midhurst in the 1930s and see D tanks pottering up and down, and to visit Honor Oak Park or East Croydon say in 1900 when ALL the suburban and main line services were worked by steam and when LBSCR engines still were painted in Stroudley's livery. It must have been quite something.
     
  14. David-Haggar

    David-Haggar Member

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    As someone who is too young to remember BR era steam, born in 1979, my enthusiasm comes for it from my Dad. He grew up next to Hampden Park Station in Eastbourne during the 1950's/60's and used to regularly see Bulleid Pacifics, E4's, K's, C2x's, BR Std's, Maunsell Moguls, Schools etc etc going past his bedroom window. He took photos between 1958-64 using a Brownie 127 around the loco shed and it's these photos from that era that I took inspiration from which is why we both prefer to enjoy locos in that identity. I remember his enthusiasm when it was announced that the E4 was to be painted into BR lined black, the Bluebell required both money and elbow grease to make the livery change and we both without hesitation donated money and volunteered to help clean-up and rub down the umber paint work. Now this is not to say we don't enjoy non BR era liveries, we have had some superb charters from Jon with the P class no.178, U class with the 3 Maunsell carriages and the C & O1 double-headed with Pre-Grouping wagons. However it's the BR era we enjoy the most and to say we were more than a little disappointed when it was announced the H class was to be outshopped in SECR livery for about the umpteenth time was a massive understatement. There's no doubt the H would've looked stunning in BR lined black livery especially with 3 Bulleid carriages or the Blood & Custard Mk1's paired behind her. This combination would have been a massive enthusiast pull for the railway, in particular at gala events and charters but sadly it's not to be. However we have to say we never ever thought we'd see the E4, Dukedog and certainly Stepney in BR black so you never now where there's a will there's a way!
     
  15. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Hmm...the old livery debate eh? Well, for what it's worth...
    I'm far to young to remember BR steam. Like Jamessquared, I consider that the BR era was a low point for our railways: atmospheric perhaps, but not "glorious" or "magical", as some have described it over the years. However, I understand the nostalgia for those who remember that era; furthermore, it's good for railways to aim to present a reasonably authentic image. An engine in beautiful pre-grouping livery hauling Mk. 1s does not look right. Then again, there's nothing more frustrating than seeing the few railways than can turn out rakes of pre-nationalisation coaches coupling BR-liveried engines on the front!
    As those who remember BR steam pass on, I wonder if we still start to see some railways taking on a 1970s image and making more use of diesels?
     
  16. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I think it is true to say that all of us who restore pre-nationalisation coaches would like to see some engines turned out to match them! The Great Marquess was supposed to be going back into apple green but never has, for starters - wasn't that supposed to be a pledge to the previous owner's family?
     
  17. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    But there are very very few prenationalisation coaches in BR livery despite the fact that many spent more time running under BR.
    I am not suggesting that there should be lots of such repaints but it is strange that whilst many loco owners prefer BR livery those into rolling stock tend to take the contrary view. A few older coaches in authentic BR era livery would be rather nice and I can only think of a couple of GW ones on the SDR that are currently though others may exist.
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The IoWSR have an LBSC vehicle in unlined BR crimson.

    But (and no disrespect meant to the IoWSR, which is a railway I love), which looks more attractive:

    S6349.Isle Of Wight Steam Railway | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    or

    http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/wn-2012b/7598_keithl_19may12h.jpg

    There's a richness to the older liveries (bought out by the lining) that just isn't there with BR liveries. Add a plain black engine against something in full pre-war splendour, and in my eyes at least, there is no competition. Of course, once through the carriage door, it's impossible to tell the livery, though still obvious if you are in a Mk 1 or a proper carriage ;-)

    Tom
     
  19. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    The policy for loco and carriage liveries at the Isle of Wight steam Railway, is that the only liveries carried are those that the vehivle concerned has carried during its service with the IWR, IWCR, FYN, SR AND BR. In short any livery carried by that vehicle on the Isle of Wight.

    6349 was painted BR Crimson to match Calbournes current livery, we have since painted 4145 into BR Crimson. The bogie passenger set comprises one in the last full SR Malachite, two in the interim malachite of the early BR period and two in BR crimson. This combination coupled with Calbourne in early crest BR black is a good representation of any early 1950s Island train.

    We do go to alot of trouble to represent the Islands Railways. None of our present bogie stock can carry the comprehensive Olive livery carried by 7598. Although in years to come with the planned restoration of our LCDR bogie coaches we will be able to display vehicles in the full splendour of the lined Olive livery.

    At present all of our stock spends 365 days a year out in the elements, with luck in a year or two we will be able to keep them under cover. Fingers crossed !!
     
  20. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    As one who can just remember BR steam (holidays within sight of the Minehead branch with a mixture of GW Praries and - I think - BR Standard Class 3s and some steam on the GN mainline in North London where we lived) I can understand the attraction. But what really blew me away as a nine year old was a family outing to the Bluebell and finding the amazing sight of a clean (!) light green Adams tank with pre-group stock (which admittedly lacked some of the glory of the loco in those days), then wandering around the yard and finding all sorts of other locos in a variety of liveries, tank engines with names, and some with polished brass and copper. It was that visit that really awakened an interest and passion for railways of all sorts which has continued for nearly 50 years. I'm not old enough to remember Pre-Group steam, but none the less the Bluebell showed me what most of us missed the first time around, and I am so glad that they keep that era alive. Some other railways do the BR era well, and are to be commended for it. Aren't we privileged to have such variety available?

    Steve B
     

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