Bluebell Northern Extension - so what's occurring then?

Isn't the name of the game at the Bluebell that all regular timetabled passenger trains are hauled by steam? Thus any visitor planning a trip can be guaranteed steam haulage? That for me would count as being an all steam hauled line. I am all for steam, don't really do diesels (unless its a Deltic, they are something else!), when Tornado was replaced by a diesel on the tour out of Lewes the other month I did not bother to go even though I live one mile from Three Bridges. However I will be there for that first tour as it is another bit of history in the making.

 

Exactly the same as me with the tours. I didn't go out for either of the last 2 tours that were due this way (The Royal Wessex and the Cathedrals) because they weren't steam and I live literally a few minutes walk from Haywards Heath station and literally a road and a few buldings seperate where I am from the line (I fact I think I heard the Class 66 return with the Cathedrals tour as I don't have double glazing).

Not quite sure if I'll go to see this first train (maybe I will seeing as it will be the first through) but definately will when the first through steam tour arrives at Sheffield Park.

 

A very vaild point David. Less than 1% of Steam Charters go to preserved railways.


Has the track been lowered on the East Grinstead Line where it passes under the bridge that carries the Redhill to Tonbridge over it to allow Steam south of Hurst Green ?

The Bluebell will only be able to receive charters on days where there is a 1 train service or when there are no trains, since the signalling will only allow one train North of Kingscote.

 

Won't there be time enough for the charter to do East Grinstead-Kingscote whilst train 1 runs Kingscote to Horsted Keynes and passes train 2 there which then runs to Kingscote?

 

It's not so much the gauge clearance as the axle loadings on the Oxted lines which will trouble steam operations. The operation of class 66's on the spoil trains and on other engineering trains over Woldingham, Oxted and Cookspond viaducts needed extra speed restrictions for their operation. Also the spoil trains were down loaded to 40 tonnes per wagon instead of the normal 60 tonnes to adhere to the axle loading restrictions.
I understand that exploratory talks taking place in the background concerning route clearance for steam to East Grinstead.

Regards, Neil

 

Not according to an article in Bluebell News. The token ( not sure if correct term) will have to be driven from Kingscote to East Grinstead and there will not be enough time. In the long term( The S&T department have got a lot of work elsewhere to do first) when the box to the north end of Kingscote is brought into use I gather it will be possible to have 2 trains North of Kingscote. I will try and find the article in Bluebell News.

 

There are four available paths on the proposed timetable, so on a normal weekend day with two service trains and a lunchtime Golden Arrow, there should still be capacity to receive an incoming charter. (The token would have to be taken from Kingscote to EG by road, however, and returned by road once the charter departed). It might be a bit tight for time, even though the new timetabled is more relaxed than the current one.

Whether the rest of the visitor infrastructure could cope with an incoming charter on an already busy day is another question, but there is no real line capacity problem. It is likely that any incoming charter would terminate at HK simply because there is more space to berth the stock out of the way than at SP.

That said, everyone seems to be obsessing about charters just because there is one planned. The driving force for going to EG isn't really about incoming trains: it is about going to a real destination in a town, rather than somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Having a walking-distance connection to national rail is important as a new route for passengers to arrive. Having a rail connection is important because it will enable rail-borne supplies (such as ballast, rail, tampers etc) to arrive more cheaply than by road. The ability to also have mainline charters is a bonus, but is of marginal importance relative to the first two.

Tom

 

A Black Five ( 45407) has run South Croydon to Uckfield on an RTC trip, I photographed it at Ashurst. A planned Past Time trip with Tangmere to East Grinstead and Uckfield ( which has cancelled because Tangmere was needed elsewhere ) the East Grinstead section was removed from the itinerary due to gauging issues before the trip was cancelled. I was told by as working member the problem was the bridge I mentioned above ( I have previously assumed it Cookspond Viaduct, which is have work done on it at the moment, do not know the extent of the works). I posted before about this and someone confirmed this bridge is a problem and a link to some photos north of the bridge showing the line dipping under it was provided.

 

Tom

My information came from the Autumn 2010 issue of Bluebell news which Gordon Callander stated " The time neeed to pass a train between the national network and our line together with the time required to convey the token by road between Kingscote is too long to fit in the time available between normal service trains where there is more than one service train operating The implication of this is that fitting a through special into our regular weekend service will not be possible until, the long signalling arragements for East Grinstead are commissioned.

Paul

 

I think the visitor infrastructure will struggle to cope. When charters go to preserved railways a lot of the passengers do not stay on the railway so there is less pressure on the facilities such as Catering and Toilets.

 

Yeah, I was having second thoughts about that. There are paths available, but as you say it is a timing issue. That said, in Autumn 2010 the proposed timetable hadn't been announced, so Gordon may have been assuming a slightly tighter turnaround than will in fact be the case.

Going on the timetable given at the AGM, the 9:30 ex SP train (as an example) will depart EG going south at 10:30am, so arrive at KC going south ca. 10:38. The next "up" service (the 10:45 ex SP) will arrive at KC going north about 11:20am and would have to cross the southbound charter. So that gives 42 minutes to check in the token at KC and remove it again (ca. 2mins); drive it to EG (ca. 15 mins); signal in the charter from EG mainline station (say 5 min); run it south (8 min) and check in the token to KC box (ca. 2min) before the 10:45 ex SP up service arrives. All that makes 32 mins, i.e. ten minutes to spare, so theoretically possible but it might be considered too tight for operational resilience, either on our behalf or Network Rail's.

(This is an example timing; other paths slotting between the two service trains would have same time window available, but at times later in the day).

Tom

 

I agree. I have spoken to some fellow enthusiasts(who lived north of London) when on either a mainline charter or while at another preserved railways and with a station next to mainline station they seem keen to visit by rail when open. I have visited the Great Central Winter Galas the last 2 years by rail because it is less tiring and stressful.
According to a map of the DFT website some Thames Link services will come to East Grinstead once the capacity has been increased

 

You're right here. Tom. There seems to be a simple test as to whether a main lin liked-heritage line will support regular main line steam: Did special excursions/extra trains run along the line before 1968? or to put it another way, is there a nice sandy beach at the end of the line? In other words, based on the experience of preservation-era main line running, Minehead, Swanage or Kingswear are winners.
There are plenty of attractions adjacent to other main-line connected preserved lines - e.g. the Bronte Parsonage at Haworth, Buckfast Abbey, Alresford town and mill, Bewdley's historic buildings, but none of them seem to justify running regular main line steam. The Bluebell, with Sheffield Park gardens nearby, will come into the same category, so my guess is that after a few charters in 2013-4, there won't be more than the very occasional one after that.

The one exception to the "sandy beach" rule might be the Churnet Valley/Moorlands & City if they get through to Alton Towers.

I'm willing to be corrected over my "sandy beach" rule, and can't offer any profound explanation for it other than what is stated above, but I think it's a fair assessment. Having siad that, I wonderif anyone will try to run a ramblers' special!

 

But there has never been any real attempt to market such attractions as an extension to a steam excursion. Another point is that sometimes it would be necessary to arrange onwards transport to the attraction. Sheffield Park House and Gardens are about a mile from the railway station. That's a stroll for some but others would want, for example, a vintage bus ride.

 

I agree with your comments and would add one possible further exception to the " sandy beach " rule might be Peak Rail with Matlock Bath/ Heights of Abraham, short coach ride to Bakewell and Chatsworth, and a slightly longer coach ride to Crich Tram Museum.

 

It's a good point. How many people are on a typical excursion? 300? 400? I think that is beyond the capacity of the Bluebell to cope with on a day we already have a similar number of "our own" visitors (thinking about toilets, restaurants, platform space etc). In fact that would swamp lots of nearby attractions - which I guess is an advantage for places like Swanage or Minehead where the arriving passengers can disperse into the town / beach for a few hours with relatively little problem. Many railtours I see on the main network arrive in towns such as Windsor, Bath, Oxford etc that are interesting in their own right and can easily absorb the numbers. By contrast, Sheffield Park (or HK) are small and relatively remote - certainly few people arriving on a charter could seriously leave the railway unless forward transport were to be provided.

I could imagine a charter in which a variety of onward options were provided - one coach going on to Wakehurst Place, another to Sheffield Park Gardens, another couple to Brighton etc etc, with just a few people opting to stay at the railway and explore our museums, sheds etc. But logistically that would be a real headache for the promoter to organise (and guarantee everyone got back on time for the return trip!) and I don't even know if the kinds of visits offered would chime with the typical railtour punter - not really my field of expertise. Plus it would inevitably be more expensive than just a "straight" railtour.

So my gut feeling is that there will be a few railtours in the first year or so after opening, tapping in to the hardcore railfan market who will want to "do" the track. But after that I think railtours will be rare unless someone can find a way to make a small, but frequent, Scarborough Spa Express / Jacobite type operation viable. (By small, I mean maybe 6 - 7 coaches so we don't get swamped, but running to a regular timetable from e.g. London so it can become almost a "turn up and go" type deal tapping into the London tourist market as a fun day out). Other than that, I think we will settle down to having a fairly convenient connection in a pleasant town for people starting their day in SP; a convenient interchange with national rail for people starting their day in London / points north; and a very convenient route to bring in P/Way supplies!

Edit: What will be interesting will be how much our primary traffic flow reverses direction. At the moment something like 90% of our passengers start at SP; most of the remainder at HK and hardly any at KC. It will be interesting to see to what extent we become a "north to south and return" operation after opening, rather than our current "south to north" and return.

Tom

 

I think there are three scenarios (to take SP House and Gardens as an example):

1) Market it as an "add on" to a steam excursion
2) Market it as an "add on" to regular Bluebell passengers, with joint tickets offered
3) Market it as an "add on" to coach parties

Number 1 is basically problematic for the reasons I give above - steam excursions are too big and it is unlikely all the passengers would want the add on. You could offer multiple different attractions, but the logistics get complex.

Number 2 has never really worked in the past, though we have on occassion offered a free bus link between the station and the gardens, in conjunction with the National Trust (just as there is, or has been, a free bus between Alresford station on the MHR and Jane Austen's house nearby).

Part of the reason this hasn't been done in the past is simply that most of our passengers start at SP. So anyone planning on doing both attractions in the day is likely to park at our station, do the train trip up and down and then move on the Gardens. Once starting your journey at EG becomes viable, I'd imagine far more people would want to do "train from EG to SP; visit the gardens for lunch, return to EG on a later train", and our new timetable has been designed to make this possible.

The other stumbling block has been around Gift Aid. As a charity, the National Trust likes to encourage visitors to Gift Aid their entry fee, which is treated as a donation. Whereas the Bluebell, as a PLC, can't recover Gift Aid on tickets, but equally it is zero-rated for VAT. So offering a joint ticket is quite complex from a tax point of view.

That said, the marketing benefits of offering joint tickets is sufficiently attractive to both parties, and the convenience of having a day out from London is such that I imagine serious efforts will be made to work out a suitable joint ticketing scheme. It is also interesting that recently SP Gardens has moved from the National Trust SE Region to the London Region, presumably because, once the Bluebell opens to EG, the National Trust want to market the property hard to the London tourist market.

Number 3 - the coach party market - already has some joint ticketing, since in effect this is basically handled by negotiation with the coach party, and the issue of gift aid doesn't arise (i.e. you basically pay a ticket price to the coach company for a service; and the coach company negotiates with the National Trust and the Bluebell for what the entrance charges would be).

So I think when we open to EG and a day trip from London to SP House and Gardens via the Bluebell becomes viable, we'll see serious efforts made both to market the trip as a joint attraction, and to overcome the tax complexities of the Bluebell being a plc and the National Trust a charity.

Tom

 

Another factor to think about also is that there could be a number of owners of main line locos wishing to base there engines at the Bluebell in between rail tours or just for maintenance work. In recent years I can think of Tornado, Nunney Castle and Clan Line going to the Mid-Hants to use their facilities between tours or for winter work. Not all but some of these locos have then in turn run a few weekend service trains so it'll be interesting to see if the same happens at Sheffield Park.

 

Some interesting discussions here. I might be completely wrong,but is there currently not some problem (weak bridge or similiar) preventing some loco-hauled trains running from Oxted to EG? Can anyone comment further on this

 

See posts 105 and 108. I think there are some earlier posts on this thread, will try and find them.

Additional information found see posts 514 and 516 on this thread http://railways.national-preservati...bell-track-laying-south-eg-52.html#post453082