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Bluebell Northern Extension - so what's occurring then?

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by domeyhead, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    First visit was in 1976 just when Blackmore Vale returned to steam, a coach party from Farnham to the Bluebell and K&ESR on a boiling hot day. Even the coach boiled over as it was so hot. This was long before air con was standard so we were exposed to the full sun with those enormous windows that Plaxton coaches had. Somewhere there is an 8mm film of the day.
    I have been fairly regularly over the years when back in the UK.
     
  2. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    I think you've probably nailed it. Then again, AFAICR the rails are all still there, they only have to clear the line, and then do various refurbishments (replace sleepers, etc), so they have a good head start on everyone else...

    Hmm. They've got a couple of roads to get across, but they also seem to have a good head of steam up (to use an apposite phrase :), as shown by their first push out of Robertsbridge across all those bridges, so my guess is that they might be next after the CVR.


    Not very far, true - but those are some major works in the way! I haven't heard much about that recently - there was that application for funding that fell through, and I've not heard much since then (although I think there was something in their member's magazine that I didn't see, so maybe there is some news). Almost certainly going to be longer than the KESR, although they might get there before the GWSR gets to Honeybourne!

    I've always had a soft spot for that particular extension - it was that that got me interesting in the whole heritage rail scene. So that one will be a particular joy if/when it finally happens!


    Funny one! (I guess I'll let second connections count!) Although that's 10-20 years away, I gather?


    Indeed. I'm still pinching myself (metaphorically) that it's finally coming true. SOOOO exciting, as my daughter's crowd would say!

    (The Other) Noel
     
  3. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    1965 - the train that day was hauled by the Adams tank (488), and the coaches were the Observation car, one or two non-corridor coaches (I'm fairly sure one was LSWR 320), and for one journey at least the Brighton Directors Saloon. I would love to see such a combination again!

    Later on in the early 70's I was a teenaged volunteer, spending several days or weekends each year clipping tickets, and telling people where to park cars. I used to travel from north London by train and get to Sheffield Park before the first train of the day (a very early start). In those days no buses went anywhere close to the railway, so it was a walk from Chailey Crossroads, or from Horsted Keynes village to the station, and then along the track to SP (and no, we didn't tell Horace May, the then GM that we did that...)! When staying overnight it was a night spent on the cushions in whatever train was left at SP overnight. The first class compartments in SECR 1050 were not as comfortable as might have been expected!

    These were years when the railway was fighting a rear-guard action to keep things running. For some time the only big engine was Birch Grove, which ended up being run into the ground, and the P's were the mainstay for many services, being the only other serviceable locos. The coaches slowly fell apart until the railway could afford the shed at Horsted Keynes, and that was only possible once the line had been paid for, and even then the coaches in service were decidedly second rate, and painted in all sorts of liveries, with blue being quite common. On my last visit a few years ago I travelled in one of the mets, which I remember stored in 1970 at the end of the pump siding with brambles and small trees growing through the floor!

    Therefore I find myself feeling thrilled to see how far the railway has improved and developed over the years. As I have mentioned before, I no longer live close enough to be more than an occasional visitor, but it is now tremendous to see this latest development almost finished.

    Well done all

    Steve B
     
  4. South District

    South District New Member

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    IoWSR into St Johns :clap2:
     
  5. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I am afraid I see an echo here of the remarks of a fellow cynic, who was a historian of early motoring, regarding a well known motor manufacturer. These were to the effect that if you made a big enough loss it was a well known business principal that there would be no difficulty in borrowing enough money to enlarge in order to make an even bigger and better loss! The time to get a grip on operating costs is before expansion rather than afterwards. With a longer ride the amount which can be charged per mile has to go down or the customers may resist or only travel part way. This is the first problem.

    Hope you are right but the consequences of lines opening extensions, after the initial gricer "rush" is mixed. Many see little long term improvement at all (I can think of two at least where they have declined over a period) and I do suspect wishful thinking may play a part her.

    Then there is all the pain of "the mainline connection". You will be expected to run your trains to connect with the mainline which may be audaciously unpunctual despite fines etc. Similarly, if your own train is late and delays the connection, with knock on effects, who pays the fine? There is a current fuss about steam hauled excursions as it is. For these reasons I would suggest that the ideal mainline "connection" is somewhere like Smallbrook Junction where the "mainline" is bi-directional single track and there is an excuse if services don't quite co-incide. End to end connections are the worst. Haywards Heath would have had its charms.

    These are not last minute doubts on my part and I would have aired them earlier save for a wish not to put the boot into fund raising. I really do wish the Bluebell well but, as I said earlier, now is where the fun really starts. There is deferred maintenance to tackle (?Freshfield Bank), a lot to learn about running longer trips and the need to provide additional equipment (which costs). Good luck

    Paul
     
  6. seawright

    seawright New Member

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    Yes already has a shared station - Smallbrook Junction - but just like Eridge on the SVR there does not appear to be any motivation to provide the interconnection.
     
  7. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    NYMR into Whitby Platform 2.

    As said earlier a job well done.
    I should be down for the day in June to sample a ride again.
    Last time when we arrived by train at EG the link bus was just pulling out and we had an hour to wait.
    Hope that is not in the planning for your new services.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Paul

    Firstly, anything like this is a bit of a leap of faith, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. But taking your points in turn:

    Firstly, with regard extensions - as you say, the picture is mixed. But at least we now go to a destination! The point was made earlier that the MHR had a sustained rise in passenger numbers from 80,000 to about 110,000 when they went to Alton. By way of contrast, the last figures I could find quickly (2011), we had 160,000 passengers, or twice the pre-Alton MHR total. So I'd like to think we should get to around 200,000 passenger in a sustainable way. (That's my guess, BTW - if there is an internal marketing view on the expected growth of traffic, it hasn't been made public to my knowledge).

    With regard connections, I don't think we are guaranteeing any connections (I'm not sure, but I'd doubt it) so hopefully there is no question of fines etc. On a Saturday, there are half-hourly arrivals and departures at EG on the mainline, and we are running a 75minute service. So even without planned connections, passengers shouldn't have to wait a long time. As a bit of analysis, the following gives the planned Bluebell arrival and departure times, and how long a passenger would have to wait to / from a mainline connection. For a passenger arriving from London, you will have either 13 or 28 minutes to wait. For a passenger waiting for a service back to London, you will have either 12 or 26 minutes to connect. At a guess, I'd have thought you would need five minutes of that to walk between stations, so there is a bit of scope for late running from either party. But you would never have to wait more than thirty minutes.

    Mainline arrivals at EG are at xx:17 / xx:47

    Bluebell departures from EG with connection time from mainline service are at 10:45 (28mins) / 12:00 (13mins) / 1:15 (28mins) / 2:30 (13mins) / 3:45 (28mins) / 5:00 (13mins) / 6:30 (13mins)

    (not all trains run all year)

    Mainline departures are at xx:07 / xx:37

    Bluebell arrivals at EG with connection time to mainline services are 10:25 (12mins) / 11:41 (26mins) / 12:56 (11mins) / 2:11 (26mins) / 3:26 (11mins) / 4:41 (26mins) / 5:55 (12mins)

    (not all trains run all year)

    The Sunday connections aren't quite as good - hourly arrivals from London at xx:34 connecting with our 75minute service, so the waiting times slowly get longer throughout the day - 11 minutes for the first departure from EG, then 26 minutes, then 41 minutes etc. But for a passenger making what might be a typical day trip on first and last Bluebell trains and visiting SP Gardens for the day, they could arrive at EG at 10:34 and catch the Bluebell train at 10:45; then catch the 4:00pm up from SP to arrive at 4:41 and have a mainline connection at 17:12, 29 minutes later, which when all is said and done isn't a bad service.

    The one really problematic connection (in my opinion) is the second up trip of the Saturday night Golden Arrow, which is timed to connect with the last mainline departure to London. Don't know what the plan is if that connection is missed.

    With regard deferred maintenance - point agreed. That is why the chairman has called for a period of consolidation for the next few years. (My comment about Ardingly was somewhat tongue in cheek! 10 - 20 years is probably a realistic lower limit).

    With regard learning about longer trips - we're going from 9 miles to 11 miles. Yes, there will be increased loco and rolling stock mileage and more infrastructure to maintain, and I take the point that the income per mile probably has to drop, i.e. we can't increase fares by 22%. But from an operating point of view, it is not a lot different from what we do now, though the steeper gradients will have an impact and the very small locos may start to get pushed for water.

    I don't want to appear complacent, and normally I am on the side of cautious pragmatists in these types of discussions. But even when the initial "gricer rush" has subsided, I believe there will be a tangible, permanent and significant rise in passenger numbers by virtue of a mainline rail connection to a station that is less than 60 minutes journey from central London.

    Tom
     
  9. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    Unlike most my first visit (to my knowledge) was 1995 at the age of 4 for a Thomas weekend which coincided with 30777 arriving for its loan. I can't dare to think how many visits I've done since then but must be a considerable number. I suppose mainly because its my local line.

    Really can't wait til March 23rd.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    ... apparently seen heading through East Grinstead on the back of a lorry about three hours ago. Presumably means it will be offloaded at Sheffield Park and then wait until the last few feet are joined up and the track has been ballasted before working north. There's enough ballast on site from the two trains that ran last month.

    Tom
     
  11. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully the last piece of rail equipment to arrive via road... :)

    Noel
     
  12. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I would imagine it will not be; sadly road transport is often cheaper and easier.
     
  13. desperado

    desperado Member

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    My worst example of missed connections between preserved railways and the main line is at Eridge from the Spa Valley Railway onto Southern trains to London.
    In some of their timetables, they had 5 minute connections at Eridge which are OK for just walking over the footbridge but does require prompt and efficient train working.
    On one occasion, the Spa Valley service was a few minutes late and while both trains were in the station at the same time, no way was it possible to get over the footbridge before the Southern train left. And the Southern service is hourly. Fortunately there's a pub just outside the station.
    My conclusion from this was not to timetable marginal connections and make sure the operating staff are aware of any connection that might be close.
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's sound advice!

    I'm sure that after a year or so of running to East Grinstead, we will rejig our timetable if necessary both in the light of operational experience and evidence about traffic patterns.

    Tom
     
  15. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Sadly the weather has broken, but at least the past two weeks or so has allowed the completion of the basic trackbed and drains, so we will see no more of the "sea of mud" that was around earlier.
    Once lined and tamped ( or tamped and lined...) this new stretch of trackwork will no doubt look superb.

    On a different topic, and forgive me if this is obvious when you visit the location, but why does there need to be a raised ramp and walkway to the ticket portakabin, which is itself on stilts? Could it not all have been at ground level?

    46118
     
  16. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    I was too young to remember much about my first visit - probably early 1960s. I was apparently very keen on trains as a small child, but lost interest about the age of 5 or 6. However, when my younger brother went through the "Thomas" phase, my parents took us all down for a visit which I do remember. The loco was 473 - probably in its final year before withdrawal - and the coach in which we travelled was SECR 1050. At this time, I was more interested in space travel, like a lot of young boys in the 1960s, but the trip to the Bluebell was a game changer for me. My interest in trains was re-kindled as a result of that visit, and has never been extinguished since. The engine that I really took to at the time was the Standard 4, No. 75027. I've no idea why - it wasn't in action that day - but I still like this engine, although it now has rather a lot of competitors for my "favourite" Bluebell loco. In fact, I wouldn't really like to say what my favourite Bluebell engine is now.

    Once my brother out grew Thomas, he took no further interest in trains, but it's all his fault that I you're stuck with me posting my ramblings on this forum!

    I also remember my first trip to Kingscote - on the reopening day in April 1994. That seems a long time ago now. I'm not planning to travel on the first day of services back to East Grinstead, but hope to be down during Easter Week. Well done to all who have been involved in this amazing project - now so close to fruition.
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Photos from John Sandys, showing progress relaying 30 foot rails with 60 foot ones, the water tower in EG and the arrival of the tamper.

    NEP Photo Update, Thurs, 07/03/13, (Now updated) - a set on Flickr

    Meanwhile, the big news: Tomorrow is the day!

    Via the Bluebell Yahoo group:

    "The momentous and long awaited ‘official joining up’ moment will be held on Friday 8 March 2013 at Imberhorne Lane Bridge. This will be a relatively ‘private’ and low key affair for the guys who actually did the work to celebrate with a traditional cup of tea, although it will be filmed and a limited (because of space and access difficulties) number of press representatives invited. Roy Watts will be doing a few radio interviews too.

    As for who is going to tighten up the final fishplate, this honour goes to Barbara Watkins who has done so much to support the teams working on the Northern Extension Project in so many ways. She has a specially cleaned and painted fishplate lined up for the job!"

    Update: there is an update on the Bluebell website. If you scroll down to "Record of earlier work in February" there are some interesting photos from Mike Hopps showing work preparing the trackbed from inside the cutting, different to the normal viewpoints.

    http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/ext/extprog.html

    Tom
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Some very interesting moves on the railway tonight :smile:

    Tom
     
  19. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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  20. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Can you give us a clue, or are you just going to tease us? (Or is it related to the golden clip tomorrow, in which case I think we can hold our now-piqued curiousity... :)

    Noel
     

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