Bluebell Railway East Grinstead Opening Gala - SPring 2013

To be fair though David, I think you are looking at that turntable question through the eyes of someone who thinks that long term, steam charters are going to be an important part of our business. My own feeling is that they never will be. Certainly given the cost (upwards of £500k has been mentioned), there are more important things we could spend that sort of money on. For example, would you rather have a turntable - or, say, both Bulleids and the Schools back in traffic? Because with money scarce, it might be an "either / or" question. Certainly improved capacity to restore locos (by constructing, say, a new boiler shop) is of greater commercial sense to the railway than a turntable just so we can turn round someone else's engine!

As for Britannia: don't know which way it will face - for all we know it might arrive by road. And even if it comes by rail and points the wrong way round and that fact is deemed catastrophically important, as a one-off, it would be possible to turn it using a lorry, especially if one was available as a result of another road delivery. Things are probably possible for a one-off, never to be repeated gala that wouldn't make sense as a general operating practice.

Tom

 

I would agree with that and add that I would consider Operation under cover phases 4 & 5 more important than a turntable.

 

Yeah fair point Tom, I was thinking more of visiting mainline locos for a gala event rather than through mainline excursions as they could be top/tailed by steam/diesel. The prospect of potentially seeing numerous large tender mainline locos visit us for galas is mouthwatering but if they all had to arrive chimney first into E.G this would then mean they would be working up hill tender first from S.P and then just drifting downhill from E.G. would be a little disappointing. Of course having said that from a photographic point of view it's always easier photting locos which are facing south as the sun, on the odd occasion it does actually come out, is right behind you until late afternoon. But ultimately I would accept that if push came to shove I would far rather have the money spent of a dedicated boiler shop and improved workshop facilities than a turntable.

 

Aren't you making a logical fallacy about all engines having to arrive facing SP, though? Without a turntable, locos would have to do one journey loco-first and one journey tender-first. So assuming tender-first running is acceptable to Network Rail (and if it is not, you won't have visiting any engines arriving by rail at all...) there's no reason why they need to arrive loco-first and depart tender-first. They could instead arrive tender-first (pointing up the hill) and depart loco-first...

Out of curiosity, how does the MHR cope when it comes to visitors? They are in a very similar position to what the Bluebell will be in after the extension opens, viz: about an hour from London, mainline connection at the London end, no turntable. So I'd envisage that whatever works for them should work for us.

Tom

 

There is a triangle at Ash/Ash Vale (about 10-15 miles from the MHR), so incoming tours/visitors can be turned on the triangle. I remember reading on here that for the 2011 Autumn gala, 60163, 70000 and 4492 should have turned up facing Alresford. When they appeared at Alton, they were running tender first.

James at SVN

 

When Daylight Rail tours was active, trains often ran with the loco tender first from Alton to Guildford, then reveresed there. Also the Ash triangle has been used to turn locos as stated. Other than that, there is the option, exercised at the end of last year, to turn locos on the back of a lory in Alresford car park!

 

Thanks James and Hampshire Unit. I don't know where the nearest possible turning triangle would be to East Grinstead, but I guess the point is that for engines just coming on their own for a gala, they could arrive tender first and depart engine first (thus facing up the hill, pointing north) or the other way round (pointing south). Having a turntable isn't going to fundamentally change that or make much operational difference. For engines arriving on charters - well, I guess they are likely to be steam one way, diesel the other for the time being, but I can't see us being a massively popular destination for incoming charters anyway once the initial ballyhoo is over. Again, comparing with the MHR is probably instructive: it's not like they are a huge destination for steam charters, are they?

As I keep saying in the other thread: the key advantage for us of being in EG is that passengers will be able to arrive by train and cross to our platform to continue their journey in a convenient way. It isn't about, and never has been, having regular incoming charter trains.

Victoria to Victorian, anybody?

Tom

 

Ahhh right fair enough, I was under the impression that NR wasn't really a great fan of tender-first running on the mainline. Although it does happen on some occasions, tender-first running means restricted slower speeds and as a result they far prefere to have locos chimney first all the time. I'm sure I saw it commented on N.P a while ago on one of the mainline threads, might be wrong though:smile: I guess if we wan't the locos facing out of S.P. when they arrive from the mainline they could always be towed down by a diesel if NR get a bit funnny with a tender first-run.

 

Agree with you there Tom, it's all about access! 12 coach charter trains don't fit very well on the MHR, nor presumably on the Bluebell. Last "through" train to the MHR I can remember was the VSOE in Autumn,which arrived at Alresford for a filming session. The last Steam tour due to start at Alresford actually started at Alton because the stock as late arriving. I also remember a class 73 charter in 2009. More use was made of Alton as a start for mainline tours for a few years, but that was a really just for convenience as the stock and locos for Daylight Tours were MHR based (Actually the "Green Train" used to live at the bottom of my garden!)

 

Of course, when the line to Ardingly/Haywards Heath is open then a train could arrive one way and leave the other - no need for anything to be turned on the Bluebell. Victoria to Brighton via Horsted Keynes anybody? Of course that might be a few years away...

Steve B

 

I agree. It makes the railway more far accessible to those who come by public transport ( and not every one who owns a car, wants to drive all of the time. I have taken the train to the Great Central Winter Gala the last 2 years) and from 2018 ( I think) a half hourly Thames Link service from either Cambridge or Peterborough is proposed.


This should hopefully increase visitor numbers at Gala's and we may have more visiting locos on a regular basis if there are a sufficient number of visitors.

 

Haywards Heath? Hmmm...

I reckon we should be ready to think about Ardingly with an end-on connection to the Hanson siding (and thereby mainline access) in about twenty years or so. Of course, raising money for a turntable might delay that by a year or two!

Tom

 

Well, they have to work tender first one way; from an operational point of view, doesn't really matter whether that is when they work in or when they work out. Whether that is towed by diesel, or under their own steam is I guess a question for NR. I don't think there is any absolute ban, it's just running tender first the speed gets reduced (to 45mph rings a bell) which makes pathing harder. But I think a single engine + support coach is also a bit limited on speed due to the restricted brake force - mainline running, and light engine moves, aren't really my specialist subject to be honest.

Of course, we can always turn engines using a low loader in the car park, though that is obviously not feasible for a mainline charter that is still in steam; nor particularly cost effective as a regular occurrence. But if there was an overwhelming imperative to do so, it is perfectly feasible technically.

Or we could ignore the prospect of having visitors in and rejoice in the fact we have 30 steam locos of our own, including ten that are unique survivors. No? Oh well, just a suggestion!

Tom

 

12 coaches would certainly tie us up in operational knots. Our limiting platform is SP which is six coaches long (may in the future be extended to seven) but even at HK, KC and EG we only have room for seven. Fortunately our loops at HK and KC are long enough to easily cross a train that is, say, 12 coaches + steam engine + diesel. SP might be harder: the loops are physically long enough but would have to think what the signalling implication would be since a twelve coach train would not clear the track circuit for the bit of track between the down home and the platform starter. Probably possible under verbal instruction / hand signalling.

I think any incoming charters will probably terminate at HK, since we can terminate in Platform 2 and leave the stock for a few hours while the normal service trains pass through platform 3 (up) and 4/5 (down) as normal. Running down to SP and then straight back just for the mileage is of course possible, but terminating at SP would be a nightmare - you'd completely block the station until you could split the train in two and shunt half to the Newick siding and half to the Pumphouse siding (which is the new Carriage Shed Headshunt, so you'd also block access to the carriage shed). The Diesel charter that is coming on March 28 will follow that pattern: down to SP for the trip, but then reverse straight away back to HK where it can be conveniently stabled for a few hours until it is time to depart.

Tom

 

Regarding incoming charters, I'm curious as to where you could viably run a steam charter from to get to EG? Victoria to EG would be a very short trip versus the expense of organizing one! Any incoming charter would need to be heading South at East Croydon which doesn't leave a lot of scope for potential starting points unless you use the West London line.

 

Indeed. I also haven't seen any definitive statement about excatly which engines would be in gauge and within weight limit for the line north of EG. Which is why I keep trying to make the point that the extension isn't about incoming charters!

If (and when) we get a southern/western connection via Ardingly, there might be more scope as you could accept services via the coast line. But that could easily be 10 - 20 years away, and who knows if there wil still be a mainline steam market by then? It is only my opinion, (and other people have a different opinion) but I am firmly of the belief that now and for the forseeable future, incoming charters (whether steam or diesel) will only be a very marginal part of our business.

Tom

 

I think time may well prove you right, Tom. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it seems that only lines that have a nice sandy beach at one end attract regular charters. The KWVR have had a main line connection since they started and the Mid Hants since the 1980s (1985 if my memory is correct, but I may be a year or two out ), and they have seen relatively few visiting main line trips, in spite of the attractions of Haworth and Alresford respectively. However, I hope there will be one or two more to the Bluebel after the GBRF/UK Railtours tour in March (I'd like to travel on one!). Also, thinking of the Mid Hants, Steam Dreams are using Alresford as a starting point, rather than a destination for a charter later this year. A charter starting at Sheffield Park, calling at Horsted Keynes, East Grinstead (NR station), Oxted and East Croydon bound for somewhere like Ely or Salisbury might be a possibility. Still, I'm not Graham Bunker or Marcus Robertson. They may think otherwise, and then, as you mentioned, there are gauging issues, as no steam has run from Hurst Green to East Grinstead since the gradient was realigned under the Redhill-Tonbridge line, who knows what fits? I expect Ian Riley's Jinty or Dennis Howells' 9466 would fit comfortably, but they're not exactly ideal motive power for a 12-coach train that would be running over 100 miles each way!

 

A number of steam charters have started north of London from places such as Oxford, Northampton, Peterborough but : -
1. Less than 1% of steam Charters go to preserved railways. The most Steam Charters to Swanage in any year has been 6 but there are only 2 have been advertised this year.
2. Where charters have gone toa preserved railway such as Swanage, Dartmouth Steam Railway and West Somerset there is a town to visit at the end of the line. As someone who has been on many steam charters I do not think the Sheffield Park Gardens and East Grinstead will create sufficient demand for regular charters to the line.There are a lot more attractive routes and destinations.

 

The problem with Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes is that there are in the middle of nowhere. Would the Bluebell want charter passengers filling up there carpark? Starting form East Grinstead would be possible and the platform can take 12 coaches.

 

Charters using the Hastings Diesel "Green Godess" have run to preserved lines. The unit has the advantages of being able to reverse in any location, being within gauge for just about anywhere and only being 6 vehicles long.