If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. David R

    David R Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,013
    Likes Received:
    1,375
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Just to be clear, the vehicle is the right colour - it is a late build (1949) vehicle to a Southern Railway design, so red is the colour it was originally painted (indeed, it appears only to have had 2 colours - red and BR Blue) it's just that the livery is wrong for a 1930's scene. I agree that in its immediate post-restoration glory it will be a great advert for the railway, and at Horsted Keynes will be accessible - the colour is also likely to appeal to it's intended audience. It will be a massive improvement on it's previous increasingly decrepit state parked in Platform 1 at Horsted.

    David R
     
    Rosedale and goldfish like this.
  2. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    699
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In case you have forgotten, simply being a Heritage or preservation body does not make you exempt from health and safety law. As has been noted on other threads the ORR / HSE are taking a hard line on Heritage organisation not complying with the regulations, particularly when referring to new builds. As such it is irrelevant what you think - if the HSE standards require modern warning notices or safety cages round ladders on new structures, then that is what you will get however non authentic they may be.

    Secondly as has been noted you cannot paint the elephant livery in anything other than BR red or blue without it being totally frictions as the vehicle in question was built after nationalisation.

    So it's a big hypocritical to complain about non authentic structures at East Grinstead but also complain because a piece of rolling stock is actually being restored to an authentic condition externally.
     
  3. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    699
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There is a suggestion that during the summer it could be based at Kingscote so as to encourage (1) encourage people to stop off and use the refreshment hut and (2) use it to attract E Grinstead residents who don't feel like / want to pay for a full line ride but would be tempted by a short run down to Kingscote and back.

    In winter, when the weather makes Kingscote a less attractive place to linger between trains and the picnic field is waterlogged the van could be transferred to Horsted Keynes - where it could be more useful, particularly around Christmas.

    In such a strategy, unless it gets repainted every couple of months,it will allways be in the 'wrong' colour scheme for one of the stations it is based at.
     
  4. David R

    David R Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,013
    Likes Received:
    1,375
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  5. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    2,077
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think it's disgraceful that passengers are allowed to stand about on the platforms at HK in non-1930s clothes! Not to mention all the people with obviously 21st century cameras. Completely spoils my pretend period photos of the pre-WW1 train and the 1950s train...
     
  6. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,518
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Anyway, there are *far* too many people on the platform for the 1930s. They should limit the number of visitors to make it more authentic. Maybe 6 or 7 of them at most?
     
    Rosedale and andrewshimmin like this.
  7. A1X

    A1X Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    737
    Occupation:
    Insurance
    Location:
    Good Old Sussex by the Sea
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    No no, it's all ruined, this lamp clearly has a piece of post-1970 wire attached to it. That's it, the day's ruined, I'm off to leave a 1* review on TripAdvisor.
     
    Rosedale and andrewshimmin like this.
  8. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,700
    Likes Received:
    16,687
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But surely, if it is berthed outside the carriage shed at Horsted and in the yard at Kingscote, it could be painted one colour on one side and t'other colour on t'other!:confused::eek::)

    Simples!:Wacky: Now everyone can be pleased with it, not just those hardworking folk who rescued, preserved and restored it......:)

    Robin
     
  9. David R

    David R Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,013
    Likes Received:
    1,375
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ah, but then people would complain that standards were dropping because this particular vehicle being a 1949 BR build to an earlier SR design would never have have been painted olive green :). We can't please everyone.

    I'm quite happy with it in red - I think it's going to look superb and it will appeal to our younger visitors and restored, it is one less piece of "junk" cluttering Horsted.

    David R
     
    Rosedale, cct man and Jamessquared like this.
  10. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,259
    Likes Received:
    49
    Occupation:
    CONSTRUCTION
    Location:
    LONDON
    Except that the red turns to pink quite rapidly, unless of course it is varnished?

    Chris.
     
  11. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,941
    Likes Received:
    16,265
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If it's sat in the platform I can't imagine there'll be a shortage of volunteers to give it a lick of paint on a summers day when the trains are running... There never is with us anyway!
     
  12. Extension3363

    Extension3363 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    75B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    My understanding was that it would be berthed to the north of the Carriage Shop (a Mark 1 that is also too modern for Horsted!). As a result it may be partially hidden by the buildings on platform 1 / 2.

    Also I believe that a display telling the history of Horsted Keynes will be mounted in the adjacent waiting room with the model railway. This will also answer the question, "why does the village has such a large station?" Taken together they aim to provide entertainment and education in an attempt to persuade people alight and stay at Horsted Keynes for longer during their visit to the railway.

    Dave
     
    David R likes this.
  13. 21B

    21B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    2,784
    Rarely do the standards require modern signs as such. Very often the style of notice is left to the organisation. It simply has to be legible and understandable. The ORR are in general very understanding about the "heritage" aspect, for example not insisting on modern signs at level crossings on the railway side of the fence.

    Safety cages might also be avoided if other mitigation is possible and put in place.

    The HSE have nothing to do with safety on the railways, the powers are exercised by the ORR. The ORR are generally trying to take less interest in Heritage Railways overall and push the onus back on the HR assoc and individual railways, but will certainly prosecute failures just as assiduously as they do with any other railway organisation.
     
  14. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    15,981
    Likes Received:
    6,680
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The health and safety at work act applies to railways, likewise the RIDDOR requirements.
     
  15. 21B

    21B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    2,784
    I agree, but the enforcement of it including the RIDDOR reporting is done via the ORR not the HSE where railways are concerned.
     
  16. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    699
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The ORR may well be the enforcement body but the drawing up of said H&S regulations IS the remit of the HSE. Even ROGS (which mandates each railway having their own SMS) is not something the ORR have a direct say over (it being Parliamentary legislation)

    Also you seem to be forgetting that as far as the ORR is concerned there are far too many railways out there where standards are quite simply NOT good enough. Over the past couple of years the ORR has repeatedly said they are now taking a hard line with any railway organisation whose SMS or compliance with H&S legislation (as drawn up by the HSE) is found lacking and will not hesitate to take action - the Heritage sector having been given long enough to get its house in order since the whole ROGS / SMS thing went live.

    While it is true that in matters of signage the ORR do not mandate modern signage, the emphasis is very much on the individual railway to demonstrate how their period signage is still for for purpose - in the sense that visitors and staff fully understand its meaning - being in mind the style and structure of the English language and phraseology changes with each passing generation. If sufficient doubt exists (for example because of repeated violations of what the sign requires) then replacement or alterations will be needed to maintain effectiveness. (For example changing the phrase "Passengers are requested to......" with "Passengers MUST......").

    Similarly with structures while safety cages are not necessarily mandated - they are regarded as 'good practice' in the modern world and as such a railway choosing not to install them on a new structure must demonstrate how the risks the HSE have identified will be mitigated in the cages absence. For example this could be by requiring access to be done with the use of fall arrest harnesses (which in themselves require staff / volunteers to be trained in its use, plus the harnesses to be serviced regularly, etc). Thus it is quite possible that a safety cage will be seen as the most cost effective way forward when all is considered. If someone did fall from a new build ladder without a cage or appropriate fall arrest gear then the ORR could quite easy take action against the railway concerned for a SMS that doesn't adequately cover the risks by non HSE compliant structures (because the SMS allowed something to be built without suitable mitigating measures being put in place to cover the departure from HSE advice).

    Older structures are of course a different thing because the HSE recognise that adaption or the imposition of modern safety standards is technically too difficult or would cost too much . The HSE do however still require appropriate action to be taken to mitigate the risks and the ORR will take action if such breeches are detected in the railways SMS.
     
  17. 21B

    21B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    2,784
    Your point doesnt make a lot of sense to me. The HSE doesnt have a direct say over the legislation it enforces either by that logic, since that is also parliamentary legislation. If you are saying that the HSE lawyers draft the legislation relating to H&S matters then that would seem to be sensible, and further that their expertise might be leveraged to do the same for all H&S legislation, but I doubt that the HSE would draft new laws or regulations that have an affect on the railways that is unique to the railways without consulting the ORR, who by law hold the responsibility. I would accept that where the H&S matter is "generic" such as the use of machine tools for example, the ORR will quickly and rightly identify that it matters not where the lathe is situated.

    Au contraire. I am well aware of the ORR's view and have observed as such before. However, my point was that they have also indicated that they wish to spend less time dealing with heritage railways. I think we can interpret this as...."put your own house in order, we are not going to spend as much time supporting you doing that, and if you have an incident and you havent sorted yourself out we will treat just the same as any "mainline" company".

    I think that the comment regarding ROGS can further be understood to mean .... get yourselves independent competent persons, willing, able, and insured to undertake the role of ICP for new works and major modifications, stop expecting us (the ORR) to do that like the HMRI once did, stop moaning about the unfairness of it, and stop expecting us to ignore the legislative requirement for an ICP.
     
  18. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    699
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Allow me to give a practical example:- The "working at height regulations". These regulations were drafted by the HSE, not the ORR and applies just as much to a railway engineer climbing a signal or examining the top of a water tower as it does to a window cleaner, a scaffold erecter, a roofer, a painter, etc

    What the ORR expect is that any railway - Heritage or otherwise will address the risks the HSE have identified in the "working at height" regulations in their SMS. Were someone to fall and from height and the SMS found to be deficient because HSE regulations had not been complied with then the railway would be prosecuted for (a) not complying with HSE regulations and (b) as a separate mater, not having a SMS that is fit for purpose.

    Similarly not having the correct PPE available in a workshop on a Heritage railway is breaking HSE regulations NOT railway specific legislation. However because the SMS should have incorporated the necessary HSE regulations in it contravening that will also demonstrate non compliance with the other.

    What is true though is that a SMS may still be found deficient for other reasons than complacence with HSE regulations. As such enforcement action taken because of a deficiency in the SMS may not involve HSE legislation if said HSE legislation is being complied with. The reverse is not the case however.
     
  19. 21B

    21B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    2,784
    I agree with all you say. I am not sure what point you're trying to make.
     
  20. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    699
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That there are perfectly good reasons why the water tower ladder has a cage and some modern looking signage is used at East Grinstead.
     
    JMJR1000 likes this.

Share This Page