Bluebell track laying South from EG?

From Bluebell News Summer 2010 - Northern Extension by Chris White " Because of Weight restrictions on the line between East Grinstead and South Croydon, special dispensation has been granted by Network Rail for these trains to operate. However one of the conditions is that each wagon has a weight limit imposed, which means we have to verify the contents of each wagon before it leaves site"

 

hmm; given that the diggers seemed to take about 10 minutes if that to fill up each wagon; has this restriction on weight caused a reduction in how much rubbish has actually been removed?

The lorries moved a shedload in the trial 2 week excavation back in 2009; it may have cost a packet but it worked...

 

The average has been about 900 tons per train in 18 wagons (the aim I believe is to use 20 wagons in the next phase), so I suspect the paths were such that eighteen was the maximum number of wagons that could be reliably loaded in the available time. Presumably either the pathing is a bit different this time, or the team feel that loading can be carried out a bit more quickly.

Yes, but the cost in 2009 was £37 per ton by lorry, and is currently £25 per ton by train.

The loading of lorries also seemed to be limited to about 50 lorries per day, which was 1000 tons (I believe the trial did 10,500 tons in two weeks) which is broadly comparable to removal by train.

So the daily rate of removal is about the same, but it is cheaper by train.

Tom

 

So if the Bluebell can't get enough rail path's between now and April they could alway revert back to lorry's to maximise removal? This is very much theoretical and based on the fact that rail path's are limited and that the money is in place to do so.

Robert Philpot is covering the latest phase of work on his blog by the way, IMHO the best way to keep up with info on the dig. I must admit the Bluebell seam a bit reserved when it comes to posting updates on their website with regards to progress, I always felt this was a major flaw whilst they're trying to raise as much money as possible.

Anyway, bring on the train's next week! Always good to see a bit more of the tip disapear!

Paul

 

Don't know if RObert Philpott reads this blog but I for one thoroughly appreciated and enjoyed his updates on the last dig and very much hope he reports on the next phase with the same frequency! It is also a good commercial for potential donors to keep the diggers working. There is still time.

 

Extraction has now started and as mentioned above there are recent updates to Robert Philpott's pages.

http://www.philpot.me/cutting2.html

 

I agree that the Bluebell could perhaps do more on very regular updates etc on their web site re the extension. At one stage when I was submitting regular photos etc they had a very lively and reactive webmaster. But I guess he is only as good as the info he is supplied with.

The point that has bothered me a lot was the threat, (that was how I saw it), that if they didn't raise the funds for the extension the line would be cut back to Horsted Keynes to Sheffield Park. I'm not a shareholder but was a member and regularly purchased those "tenner for the tip" things as my way of contributing financially. Back seat of my car was littered with them at one point!

But I don't like threats. Neither did I like the fact that what to me is the best bit of line could be lost when it seems to serve such a good purpose for the railway. Regardless of whether the line gets extended or not, (which of course would be a truly wonderful achievement.)

So my interest in that railway has rather sadly waned a lot at present.

Maybe when the H class gets back into service it will pick up again.

 

As I understand it, the threat of cutting back if the tip is not cleared is because it may be forced on the railway by outside bodies, because the conditions that allowed the extension to proceed to West Hoathley will not have been fulfilled. I don't think its a case of the railway saying "pay up or we'll close the extension", but rather "pay up or others might force us to close the extension"

 

Indeed - i believe it was part of the planning conditions for the extension to Kingscote that it had to be a temporary terminus. Realistically its hard to see the railway being forced to cut back to HK given their obvious efforts to extend to East Grinstead and their likely success in the next few years, but it is (or at least was) a genuine issue.

Chris

 

Thanks for that. Pity that wasn't made clear at the time it was published in the Bluebell Magazine. Or maybe it was and I just missed it.

But whatever. My interest is not there at present and I'll have to wait and see if the H class re-ignites it.

 

I'd be extremely surprised if anyone ever enforced the requirement to retreat back to HK;

I called in at the tip yesterday (this public vantage point is a great place to see what's going on although it probably only tells half the story) the "coal face" did not appear to have moved back at all which means there is probably plenty of rubbish elsewhere that can be moved.

It's a great shame that the loading process, despite being very efficient, requires most of the rubbish covering the down line formation to be removed. Perhaps they would do much better to remove it all from the South end and leave the residual rubbish in situ; I'm sure it's best left undisturbed. Just my 2p; I'm sure they've thought of all possible solutions.

 

I've no idea of the conditions laid down for removing this waste but, as someone who has experience of waste management, I'd suggest that there will be pretty stringent conditions associated with the waste removal and the Environment Agency will enforce them, leaving the Bluebell little chance to cut any corners, as is being suggested.

 

here's a good example of the dilemma from Mr P himself; you see the obvious way through with that V shaped single line cutting; unfortunately it's not quite as simple as leaving all the rubbish to the left of the line and capping it; as it's not solid earth like the right side

 

Thanks for the pic Zoomeg. For those of us not close enough to get down to view progress are you able to post a pic from the same viewpoint regularly so we can see how things are moving? It's rainy down here in Hampshire - I hope the water doesn't make the waste unstable and halt the extraction.
One "minor" thought - dry waste weighs less than sodden waste so a lot of rain makes the cost of extraction more expensive due to increased weight!

 

thank you zoomeg for this very interesting pic would it be possible to post one pic of the progress at each end of the day! it would be peasant to see progress daily!:cheer2:
regards
noel

 

They are not my photos; they are from the seemingly villified Mr Philpot,

available here

http://www.philpot.me/cutting2.html

 

Mr Philpot is not averse to telling the world (!), via his blog, of his mistrust of the Bluebell Railway and their handling of this project. Some quite emotive language in use.

He stops short of explaining what his qualifications are for forming such opinions regarding the waste removal.

Whilst the blog is only the view of one person, plus some others that are alluded to, it would be interesting to see a 'state of play' official statement from the Bluebell with perhaps some indicative figures.


Philpot's Blog:

LETS GET SOME HARD FACTS
(July 23rd 2011)


Almost all of my direct correspondents are in agreement that the railway are giving what shall we call it, a “rosy” view of the progress towards their eventual reconnection with the main line at East Grinstead. In this I suppose I agree that if you want to raise money you have to give a positive spin to any story. My worry is when spin turns into exaggerations that are put out with the intention of enticing people to pay out money when if they knew the full facts, they would think twice. I believe this point has now been reached when the railway talks of work at the tip.

When I see pensioners sending the railway money from their pension pot which will affect their entire future income – and I know that this has been done - then I think that it really is time to speak out.

I am not suggesting that the Bluebell Railway as a body don’t care about their members, but it has always been a “private” organisation where members seem to be told as little as possible or “what is good for them”. I do though think that SOME members of Bluebell Management are in such a secure financial position that they do not realise how much their announcements can affect members’ behaviour and thereby their incomes for many, many years to come.

So what exactly am I trying to say?

Quite simply I think that if it wants its members to continue donating money for removing the tip the railway must issue weekly bulletins giving an exact report of progress in the last week, together with its exact (as near as possible) prognosis for future work. This must be clear and unambiguous saying when (or whether) the railway will complete the stages of the task that require public donations. There is nothing new in this, after all the "thermometer" sign outside your local church is a common sight when it is trying to repair the steeple. Saying "we removed 5000 Tonnes this week" is not enough when the total weight of rubbish yet to be removed is not known or shown!

With full information members can make an informed decision about whether they want to donate any more money to the scheme or whether (which is becoming my view) the Bluebell has bitten off far more than it can chew for the present time and the work should immediately go into “money saving mode”. Obviously if the railway ARE going to make it in time this information might actually increase their income!

*”Money saving mode” would be to immediately stop the trains, which presently cost £25,000 a day, and at their present rate cannot in my opinion get even a minimum job done by next year. Instead cap the tip where it is now (obviously removing the loading ramp and tidying up first). After this, two simple halts might be built at each end of the tip. A safe path could then take passengers over the obstruction and special trains run at weekends.” This is not all my idea but has now been suggested by several members. It’s messy and unattractive, but there seems no alternative if the work cannot be completed by next April. Is it worth taking money from the public to make the gap between the rails say 200 metres instead of 250 metres? After all a gap of a foot is enough to prevent trains running!

The reason for this message is that it is absolutely clear that progress is going much slower than anticipated and there appears to be no way that the cutting can be cleared, even to half the width, in the previously announced time of another 7 weeks, that’s just 35 trains. In the last 3 weeks the progress has been appallingly slow and wasteful. A bulldozer spent a full day making an area of embankment smooth and then finished off with top soil, 4 days later they dug the entire thing up to quite a depth! A Picture of this completed work is presently shown on the Bluebell web site - they don't mention that the whole area has now been dug up again! The top soil went into one of the trucks that costs more than £1000 each a day to cart away - I have that on video!

The side of the actual extraction has just been moved from one side to the other, going round a larger curve so making the shortest path between rail heads longer than before. It all seems to me like a “make it up as you go along” scheme. I mean no disrespect to the workers who do their job skilfully and to the best of their abilities, but if so many test bores were drilled why is the make up of the tip not known with any accuracy? Why at the very least are the positions of the sides not known? Why are they discovering metre thick drifts of capping material mixed up with the waste? This was obvious by the way as the tip smelled dreadfully when filled with raw dustbin rubbish and at times of hot weather this was covered with earth to reduce flies, rats seagulls and smells. Even I could have worked that one out but it is now so mixed up with the waste that all is sent to Bedfordshire as contaminated waste. What a waste of money!

If the Railway have a way around the problem of lack of progress then it should be publicly announced now just how the job is to be completed. I would be absolutely delighted to have to eat humble pie and apologise for giving a wrong message. Delighted.

I expect that this message will make me further vilified by some members who think the Railway to be “perfect” and unable to make errors, but I say even to them, have you actually looked at the tip or are you relying on reports and pictures - information from both sides?

Don't trust me, don't trust the railway - look for yourself! If you have not stood on the bridge or visited the area and seen the size of the land with full depth waste yet to be removed you cannot possibly understand the entire job well enough to make an informed decision. An overhead picture would be very helpful and worth thousands of words. It would be extremely helpful to members who want to see the current state of the work before donating more money. If work has progressed as far as suggested on the Bluebell web site ("a couple of hundred yards from the bridge") then why have the railway not arranged for just such an overhead view to be taken? My ground based pictures are foreshortened, just as are the ones from the other end on the Bluebell web site. The difference is I have looked at the work from the side and have photographs to back up what I am saying but cannot publish them as they were taken from private ground - it should also be pointed out that there are trees in the way. A remote helicopter camera can be hired quite cheaply. I looked at the work yesterday (instead of taking others words for it) and the start of the ramp is 150 yards from the bridge at the most, and the slope is very shallow reaching only to half depth at the northern end, but I digress.

They managed to get an overhead photo when the diesel train ran over the viaduct during the appalling and misleading “opening” of East Grinstead Station. Even the BBC misunderstood that one and have erroneously reported that the station is open and railway now reconnected to the main line - which is precisely what was reported on the day. Just as I predicted at the time, saying that East Grinstead Bluebell station was "open" and running a first train backfired badly..

A railway that does not make mistakes? I think not!

p.s. If you have spare cash and can afford to please donate as much as you can now, but if your finances are a little more limited please do check the facts before writing out another cheque. I may be wrong, but then so may the Bluebell!

 

Wow, thats very illuminating.

I can now see why he's been treated the way he has - what utter nonsense, seemingly based on nothing more than guesswork and what he can see from 200yds away, just so he can stick the knife into Bluebell Railway management.

Chris

 

as has been said, take mr Plantpot's comments with a pinch of salt.

its always "I wonder this" "I wonder that" "the cutting could do with some grass seed" etc

and he call's wagons trucks, although not troublesome trucks

 

Do you always walk around with blinkers on C 125?, are you a teachers pet or something?, do you have first hand information that others do not?, I doubt it somehow.

He is NOT sticking the knife into anyone my friend,just relaying a few hard facts though granted some comments leave us with raised eyebrows .

if you have some information that will shoot my last comments down in flames, then please do enlighten us.

Regards
Chris: