BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

I believe the phrase is 'Caveat Empor' !

 

I ask a simple question and sense the discussion is decending into a petty squabble.

My own view on where to build it does not include those locations that are even the slightest bit difficult to get to or have loads of work on the go. One could argue that at this stage of the build the location does not need to be rail connected or even under cover. I would suggest the main thing is to have easy access to engineering talent and access and suitable arrangements for volunteers to work on the machine. We've seen (and continue to see) locomotives that are sometimes called "cheque-book" locos. Contrary to this we see what the team building 82045 at Bridgenorth have done with their unglamourous engine and their limited funds.

 

Come come, no squabbling here is there ?
Your assessment of the payfor it all versus make of much of it as you can methods is shrewdly observed.
I suspect that 82045 is as far behind 72010 in some respects as it is in front in others but their efforts are nevertheless worthy of the highest praise. The standard 3 tank maybe unglamourous but along with the Standard 4 tank it is probably THE ideal 'preserved railway' engine . There is a lot to be learned from each other out there.

In the short to medium term the Project needs a location at which the disparate parts that do exist can be stored and ideally erected into something that resembles a locomotive
Being able to say 'Look - its here, its real, it is happening' cannot but help to get people behind the project - because at the end of the day its people, not places that get things done.

More people to foot the cheques in the book would help to get that part of the deal done quicker but sooner or later as you say the Clan will need not just a house, but a home, and that means a group of people who can put this steam locomotive together not just because they can and will get paid, but because its something they want to see done.

For whatever reasons the project hasn't (yet) been taken on by one of the 'working groups' at of one the major workshop equipped heritage railways, but there is still so much that can be done without taking up valuable workshop space while waiting for funds to accrue

i havent been involved with the project long enough to know the ins and outs why that is the case, i dont believe that there is any acrimony towards the project but there isnt enough love for 'Hengist' out there thats for sure.

If we are talking location then historically this locomotive should eventually be put together at Crewe, but spiritually its home is Scotland and perhaps there are People at Bo'ness or Aviemore ? who fancy being the first Scots to 'new build'

 

Wasn't the second batch of 5 Clans, of which Hengist was the first, destined to be allocated to SW England? Hence thier names; Hengist, Horsa, Canute, Wildfire and Firebrand, which had all been previously used on locomotives in southern England.

 

That was the intent for the next batch, yes, but in terms of the 'class' of engines that we're actually built...

There is, i believe, some strength opinion that this new locomotive would be better served by representing the class that was rather than what might have been, as the what might have beens depends on where you beleive the clock would resume ticking on lot 242.

Had the full works order been resumed then 'Hengist' et al. would have undoubtedly been the case...
Is'nt just as likely that the order would have been scaled down in which case only 72010 (which already had frames cut) would have been turned out, and likely sent to Scotland with the rest and given another clan name , or even given a different boiler and cylinders etc and ended up as 70055 'Cromarty Firth'
A couple more years and, wither Britannia or Clan it would likely have been tried out with caprotti gear... and again probably ended up noth of the border where drivers and fitters we're used to it...

I dont recall wether a clan was ever even sent for trials on the southern in advance of this, i know one was tried out on the Eastern region where it was decided they we're not up to the job as the brits ( rocket science)...

The most ringing endorsement of the class was that on longer distance turns for the same size of train they were 'better*** than a Black 5' Which given how good a general purpose machine the Black 5 is thats actually not a bad endorsement.
With the amount of Mainline work still performed by Black 5's i would say we need this Locomotive on the mainline 'Yesterday'
*** ie better chance of keeping to time

 

I've no axe to grind where it ends up being built. I'm sure, if a thorough search is made, there are suitable locations both north and south of the border where it would be made welcome.
I find your speculation on the first of a possible further (forth?) batch of "brits" interesting. It would have been interesting to see such a loco incorporating all the alterations that were applied to 71000 including Caprotti valve gear and the revised spring hanger arrangements.

 

Thanks Brian, of course Bodmin or Bo'ness is less important than a good workshop and people therin to build.

Despite my seemingly having a go at the spring hangers (as one off large castings are expensive ) i do think that the subframe idea was neat and a delight as a piece of engineering - the standards we're originally concieved as having bar frames and surely this was some attempt to get that rigidity in. 71000 hasnt shown any of the frame cracks suffered by the other larger standards, but then again as a three cylinder the tendency to 'corkscrew flex' the frames that only two big cylinders produce is absent.
With its smaller cylinders and reinforcement at the lower frame edge the Clan shouldn't suffer in that area. Of more worry is the section between the cylinders and the leading coupled wheels as cracks here we're surfacing towards the very end of steam and so no modification was ever proposed. But if the clan gets 750,000 miles of hard running in my lifetime then so be it.

It is a bit of a cloud that perhaps a brand new Brit with all the later BR Mods might actually be more desireable than a 'Clan' , make it a 2-8-2 for good measure and i for one am seiously happy...but thats seriously beside the point.

 

I may be wrong but does 71000 not have the cast frame stretchers?
I think I read on another forum that several frames are suffering from cracking nowadays, I remember when Bittern was not expected to run again because of cracked frames and what about the Barry wrecks that had cracked frames. It shows how the restoration business has moved on that we can mend these faults.

 

Amen.

 

Even if locosdo suffer from cracked frames, if there is one thing the new build movement has shown it is that new frames are relatively cheap and not an obstacle. I also seem to remember reading that 45407 is approaching the time when it will need new frames -there was a suggestion that they would be fitted in the course of its last major overhaul, but they weren't of course.

 

Frame cracking is certainly not a new phenomena, occuring on many engines at varying milages. It would need to be a very very serious crack to justify wholesale frame replacement. The vast majority of this type of defect was, and continues to be, dealt with on a regular basis by grinding the crack out and welding. If done well such a repair will see the engine through from one 10 year to the next. I've understand that those certain engines in front line service, where everything was taken to the limit (e.g. Kings and thier like), half-frames were fitted from time to time.
But we digress.

 

Thanks for that info Brian.
Just to remind folk what this thread is about, at the AGM on Saturday the members will be discussing where to build the loco, how to raise funds and also hearing about some exciting things which have been bubbling along in the background, some new and some no-one knew about until the new team took over!
We look forward to press announcements about these in the near future,and a chance to properly update the website which has been like that for too long!!!
Thanks for your interest and continued support

 

I had people come up to the LMS Patriot project and they asked if we knew anything about you as the website hadnt been updated. hope everything is going ok and really look forward to some updates. Can you put a link on this page when you have an update. Cheers Gavin

 

If the frames are replaced then that means there will be a set of frames for a Black Five kicking around. Hmmm Who is going to be the first to propose a 'rescue' of them before (shock horror outrage - you can't do that its a Black Five) someone tries to gas axe them and rebuild them with a new boiler, wheels, cylinders, tender...

 

.... then we'd have two 5407's :/

 

No more black 5's on here please, Green 6's only... that way your train will be on time

 

Any feedback from the AGM yet? I was unable to attend and sent my apologies.

 

Attendance was not as good as the EGM but this weekend was positively stacked with other steamy things to do.

Much time was spent reviewing the last two meetings All the items on the resoloution paper were passed

Build plan has been refocussed on the Frame stretcher/ Spring hangers and getting the frames erected.... my own misgivings on the complexities of these components versus the simpler seperate components used on the original clans/ Brits have been satisfied

Proposals for potential homes for the Clan we're examined and discussed and narrowed down to a few. The Managing council was mandated to fully explore these and make a decision based on the findings...

Also discussed we're reorganizing the Membership structure, adding the facility for online membership/payments/donations to the website, re emphasis that the project is building a 'Clan', and clarification on the position regarding potential mainline running (ie there is that potential)

The mood was positve and, between the serious business at hand, jovial and a good feeling cameraderie is developing

The rust on the project is definitely being disturbed

 

Sounds like you're starting to get things moving again. Will support as soon as I can spare the cash between all the other things tugging at the wallet.

 

Thanks for that consideration BP.
The administration of the 'membership' is being reorganized for a 'relaunch' early 2012 so if you find anything to put aside towards that eventuality that would be just brilliant.