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BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bulleid Pacific, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. TonyMay

    TonyMay Member

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    On aesthetics, there's no width in the boiler, it doesn't max out the loading gauge like a Coronation pacific or The Duke, it's like a lady's little finger, long, thin, and weak; it doesn't exude any impression of power, just belies the pathetic substandard performance of the class.
     
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  2. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    "oh yeah? well mine's bigger than yours!!"

    Is this the first case of appendage envy seen here on Nash Prez, or is his really like a lady's finger, long, thin & weak.....
     
  3. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    I quite like the Clan outline. It looks rather lean and rakish.
     
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  4. 242A1

    242A1 Active Member

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    The boiler on a 3500 may give the impression of being long and thin. It most certainly gives the correct impression for the rebuilds.
    Unfortunately for those who judge a locomotive solely on appearance, they are going to be severely let down. I deceived you. The design in question was a world beater. It might not have looked so, to those who have a limited vision and understanding.
    The Clan design suffered in a number of ways. People did not understand the thinking behind the design and the limited number built did not allow for an accurate assessment to be made of their work on the road.
    Aesthetics are of little significance.
     
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  5. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever actually read any books on the class? Or noted the kind of work they were expected to pull?

    I feel like quite a lot of the big railway myths are based on severe prejudices and miscommunication. The Clan was a 6MT and as far as I can see, if the class had been loaded as a 6MT, and like other 6MTs such as the Jubilees, they would not be quite so castigated as they are.

    People seem to expect performances up and above what they designed for. They were supposed to be a lower axle loading version of the 7MT where additional power over a 5MT was required on certain routes. They would seem to have fulfilled that role entirely satisfactorily. When you have the likes of Cecil J. Allen bemoaning in his books that they weren't the equal of a Britannia or a West Country or Jubilee, surely that was entirely the point of the design? They were never meant to be?

    The point about axle loading was entirely salient and some of the 4-6-0s had a higher axle loading than the Clans. So the question which remains was: was the need for a Clan locomotive definite, and if it was, why were they utilised on trains which were clearly more suited to higher power? Was being a Pacific type perhaps some of the thinking behind comparing the Clans with the Brits and West Countries?

    And I would love someone to define what "pathetic substandard performance of the class" actually means! They don't seem to have been entirely incapable machines - if they had been, would they have lasted as long as they did in service? As it was they were withdrawn when other steam classes were withdrawn due to dieselisation.

    It just seems to me to always be an emotional imbalance built on flawed and prejudicial analysis by a small body of the steam era timekeepers whose views are then taken as gospel by railway enthusiasts who then ape them without a thought for looking at the whole story and constructively analysing it for a fair and objective viewpoint.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
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  6. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Comparison with the West Country doesn't seem unfair, as that was also a lower axle loading Pacific. However the neutral observer will note that the Clans were not actually so unsatisfactory as to require rebuilding at a young age...
     
  7. 8126

    8126 Member

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    While I'm not particularly familiar with the exact details of their performance and agree with your general point, surely as a 6P with less weight and generally less generous headline stats Jubilees are a fair benchmark?

    I suppose the difference is that while Jubilees also seem to be a bit sensitive to less than perfect conditions (and there were certainly a lot of flaws to be ironed out when they were new), there were so many of them on front line express work that the LMS had to get them sorted out and crews would be much more likely to be familiar with them.
     
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  8. 242A1

    242A1 Active Member

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    If someone expects a higher level of performance from a locomotive than it was designed to deliver then they are nothing more than a fool. Flawed and prejudicial is key to this and part of the problem is that some designs do deliver more than might be expected from the sum of the parts. This has an impact upon what might be called reasonable expectations. But to expect every design to deliver beyond design requirements is where the foolishness comes in. Folk come to expect it and when it does not come about they are unreasonably disappointed.
    There is not only the performance when out on the road to consider. The more modern design of the Clan should have offered superior performance when it came to maintenance when comparing it to other Class 6s. And this is very far from being without significant value.
     
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  9. ChrisBridges

    ChrisBridges New Member

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  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    Think it'll be going to Mr McAlpines bash before long... ? so no point in packing it away. I like the way the Clan looks.
    Initially I did think it would be a shame that it would lose its cheeky wee chimney which was very distinctive, but in retrospect I think someone in the drawing office was having a chuckle and put a Crab or Patriot chimney on and im glad its going.
    How that affected the performance will be obvious at some time in the future when the only other class 6 that can match it will be a V2...
     
  11. 'Clan' Hengist

    'Clan' Hengist New Member

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    lh-motion-bracket-machining.png
    These are the parts currently under manufacture - namely the motion brackets.
    rh-motion-bracket.jpg
    This is one of them nearing completion.
    Slide bar brkts 009.JPG
    And these are the Slidebar Mounting Brackets, newly completed and delivered this week.

    Keep watching everyone - progress is good, with more to come...
     
  12. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    Can any one remind me where and when the AGM is this year...
     
  13. 'Clan' Hengist

    'Clan' Hengist New Member

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    We are currently in process of sorting this out. Should be in Carlisle in July. As soon as confirmation of venue received, we will put out full details
     
  14. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    You seem to be very busy organizing the next part off the production line than the AGM!!
    More excellent latest news on www.theclanproject.org website.
    Good to see real progress continuing.
     
  15. 'Clan' Hengist

    'Clan' Hengist New Member

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    John,If I have worked this out correctly, this stretcher is the one ahead of the leading driving wheel,
    upload_2016-2-29_21-55-37.png
    see drawing extract. Sits above the front combined stretcher as shown. Sorry I did not pick up on this until I started reading through the last few posts, or I wold have commented earlier.
     
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  16. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    Thanks Bob, As I thought, I was confused by the photo. Your plan also confirms to me that the shaped flanges are likely to be to allow flexing around the bolts/rivets rather than fit against other close parts.
    Cheers.
     
  17. detheridge02

    detheridge02 New Member

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    Engineering update 7th March 2016
    Another busy week on the engineering front.

    The sand printed mold for the exhaust steam spider is due to be 'printed' this week. This follows some extensive research that identified a couple of potential hot spots in the mold which would have required remedial work after the part had been cast. The runner and riser system for the mold has now been redesigned accordingly to remove these hot spots, just another example of how 21st century technology is allowing us to test components and manufacturing techniques before a single piece of metal is touched. Photographs and video are going to be taken when the mold is removed from the printing machine marking a first in preservation and a major step forward for one of the last frame assembly components!

    The left hand motion bracket is being welded together and right hand motion bracket is being machined, both at CTL Seal in Sheffield.

    As always the latest news is on the website at https://theclanproject.org/news
     
  18. 'Clan' Hengist

    'Clan' Hengist New Member

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    IMG_0480.jpg IMG_0480.jpg IMG_0482.jpg IMG_0480.jpg IMG_0482.jpg
    A couple of Pics of the latest parts under manufacture.
     
  19. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    Just watched the Flying Scotsman Documentary (bbc) and thoroughly enjoyed it. Nice to see those people who are involved in the Clan Project; President James, Patron Sir Bill, and the chaps from Rileys (boy wasn't Colin Happy!) getting a bit of the Limelight.
     
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  20. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    Big pieces of Metal now being made shiny on the Clan website.
    https://www.theclanproject.org/news


    Also AGM Given as 23rd July at 2pm Britannia Club Carlisle, so If you are on the CME that day, Just time to nip into Thin White Duke or Hell Below for Lunch, Pop Round the Corner and meet the Clan folk for an hour Before your return journey...
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016

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