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BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bulleid Pacific, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    There's an update on the 'Clan' website summarising the current position, with quite a bit on the rationale behind engineering decisions differing from the 1950's build (well, it has been a while!). The project now looks set to drive up publicity efforts several notches and more power to them!
    https://www.theclanproject.org/news

    Getting exciting! :)
     
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  2. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Well, the Clan Project have got that wrong. 82045 will be the 1000th Standard steam locomotive built, not 72010.
    Oops.
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Got to admit, the reference to a 'bold and daring move' seems awfully close to a line from 'Yes Minister' and the classic Sir Humphrey response to Jim Hacker's "Surely that's good ..... isn't it?"
     
  4. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Part of the furniture

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    Well 82045 is not quite "out of the box" yet to claim that title, however for 72010 to gain that 1000th title its got a great deal of catching up to do which is somewhat unlikely I think!!
     
  5. 'Clan' Hengist

    'Clan' Hengist New Member

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    We could debate that one all day....
    82045 might be finished before 72010, but it was not started first.
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Aaah .... but the third set of frames for 72010 .....

    As you say, all day (and then some!).

    I reckon it'd look fine in lined MT black. [and remember kiddies, always stand well away from the firework once lit]
     
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  7. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    To be pedantic the Extension Frames are from the second attempt/ 1st new build attempt..! but as far as Im concerned the next standard to be built ie the 1000 th will be the one that moves under its own steam first, and that will be 82045 barring some unforeseen calamity
    Theres a lot of integrity in the build of 72010, there is a definite desire to build things to the Lot 242 drawings even when reverting to simpler methods employed on the other standards would have been ' simpler'.
     
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  8. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Given proposed BR mods to the unbuilt 2nd batch were improvements based on practical experience gained with the initial order, I am at an utter loss as to why anyone would argue for their exclusion from the newbuild.

    Unless I've missed something, such additional 'tweaks' to the BR spec as have been incorporated in 'Hengist' reflect the realities of new locomotive construction over six decades after the last 6MT rolled off the production line and are grounded four square in sound engineering practice.

    So that's agreement based on experience, logic and my own invaluable personal vote of confidence(!). Like Meatloaf said .... Two Out of Three Ain't Bad. :cool:

    Now where'd I put my ego buffing cloth?
     
  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    It is interesting to note that the frame alterations for Lot 242 were incorporated into the design of the Duke first. The cab redesign was a practice ongoing for most of the other Standard tender classes. The rectangular section coupling rods were drawn up in 1956, after Lot 242 was cancelled, but 72000-9 were never modified. One interesting item is the redesign of the driver's pedestal, in the cab, for Lot 242.
    There were no boiler alterations for Lot 242.
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    The items I am referring to in particular are the big subframe castings and the use of welded in Horn guides both of which we're early 1950's tweaks which we're so sound they didn't last beyond the mid 1950's

    The subframes were introduced for Duke of Gloucester and combine the spring hangers ( which were originally individual ' Mutton chop' types but this proved too weak on the Britannias) with some adjacent horizontal stretchers. This is not uncommon in other locos (They just fitted one on the P2) and there is a similar arrangement on Bulleid pacifics but the lot 242 scheme, whilst a beautiful bit of design does require very large castings, and castings - especially large ones in my mind are worth avoiding - unless you happen to have your own foundry to keep busy.

    Improving a design to meet a need or solve a problem is progress, cascading that design as a common user component to another application that doesn't suffer from those problems maybe expedient and in bulk production create efficiencies, but its just over engineering.
    The improved ' Mutton chop ' or a paired arrangement in combination with separate fabricated stretchers would (and did) serve just as well for the Clan... it did on the 9F also

    Similarly on Paper a welded in horn guide is a neat solution, especially if your building 60 Locos and have a special Jig built... but for a one off - one set of frames screwed up by not getting it right - need I say more , and again many locos managed quite well without them including the later batches of 9f's ...

    So I stand by my earlier statement Hengist is being built honestly to Lot 242 which included an 8p and several 7p's but the 'Improvements' we're not introduced with Clans in mind, or with a one off build in mind ( unless that one off was 71000 and the whole order was just smoke and mirrors to get 71000 built)...
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  11. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Interesting thoughts. By the way, the Duke and the later Brits were Lot 234.
     
  12. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    The mainframe issue is an interesting one. Whilst fabrication is always going to be more cost effective for a one-off than casting, both US manufacturers and Beyer Peacock made extensive use of cast steel a few years before the first serious mention in BR circles.

    Accepting that there's never going to be such a thing as "the perfect mainframe", whatever the pros and cons of the three main types (plate, bar and cast) and while "Hengist" obviously isn't a 'clean sheet of paper, it would be interesting to learn which solution would be the preference of those versed in such things, were a new design to fulfill the role of the 6MT being considered.
     
  13. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    Managed to reply before Hermod redesigned it as a4_8_0 compound for us. ;)
    Its well known that Cox wanted to try bar frames originally, the box braced plate frames were I believe a bit of a Bulleid borrow and to a large extent delivered but the greater racking from a two cylinder exposed the weak spots, behind the cylinders and between the spring hangers. Unless they rebuild a Britannia with them guess we will never know how good these subframes are, but for a Clan, even one with a bit more grunt than the first batch they should prove unshakeable...tell em about the axles std Tank:Banhappy:
     
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  14. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Active Member

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    I think *everything* looks good in lined black (thank you, Francis Webb).
    It's just some things look even better in red :)
     
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  15. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    A 'Clan' .... in red? That'll need it's own thread! :Woot:
     
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  16. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    think stewart tartan on the cylinder covers would look v nice !
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Surely a second-series Clan is an honorary Kentish engine, not an honorary Scottish one - Hengist traditionally being the first king of Kent?

    Tom
     
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  18. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    My god you are right, howabout a blue woad handprint instead and a giant Torc on the smokebox.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Now you’re talking ;)

    Tom
     
  20. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    I believe Hengist is reasonably well attested, though there's debate over one of the other proposed 2nd batch names, with many historians of the opinion that 'Horsa' was actually Hengist's horse rather than his brother. If that turned out to be true:

    1) we'd be heading into LNER territory, names-wise
    2) there'd have to be at least a possiblility Hengist's spare ride was 'Horsb'

    Those familiar with the Sealink cross channel sevices might recall a somewhat accident prone vessel named Hengist, which was beached at The Warren (south of Dover) for a while after the 1987 hurricane. Long withdrawn from service here, it's final demise occured (in Turkey) last year, after one incident too many:
    http://www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk/mv-hengist-past-and-present/

    Here's to hoping 72010 enjoys far better luck!
     

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