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BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bulleid Pacific, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. b.oldford

    b.oldford Member

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    Confirmation that the pattern for the Combined Frame Stretcher and Brake Cylinder Support (SL/DE/21990) is complete and that for the Exhaust Spider (2 SL/DE/19620) will be complete before new year. I am unsure of the status of other cast stretcher items.
     
  2. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

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    Is it really £24k for the pattern or does this include the casting?

    Regards
     
  3. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    Believe it or not that is the amount for the appeal to produce the patterns.
    They are about to be started so now the current appeal is for £35k to produce the castings and machine them.
    (Here's a radical idea, how would folk on here feel about taking on board the sponsorship of the castings or their machining? Just a thought, I know we all have our own pet projects to support)

    It sounds a lot of money, more than some of us get paid per year, but bear in mind that it is a highly skilled trade, the material is not cheap and there is a heck of a lot of work in them.
    See this photo of the new cylinders for 73096 at Mid-Hants line.
    http://john517.fotopic.net/c1925631.html

    Apparently the patterns for parts are being made by different tradesmen, depending upon their availability and ability to produce the article. So whilst Mr Oldford can confirm some items, others are being produced elsewhere I am told. I am sure all these folk produce excellent work.

    I have just received the latest Newsletter, it suggest that there might still be 3 cast stretchers patterns to organise funding for, the special ones between the axle boxes.
    Sorry for misleading folks, but we are still moving forward.
     
  4. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    The interesting thing about this project is that although it has started from nearly nothing, by the end of it, we'll have most of the patterns required to build another 6MT and do some important repairs to the 'Britannias' if required. I've probably asked this question before, but does this project have 'shareholders' in the same way that Southern Locomotives Ltd. has shareholders, or is it exclusively by donation/direct debit or sponsorship?
     
  5. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

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    My thanks to 'Northernsteam' for his reply. Also to 'Bulleid Pacific' who raises an interesting matter. Stuart Cox in his book 'Locomotive Panorama' mentions that there were only three patterns for the cylinders of the BR standards (this was before 71000 was put in hand, this engine would make it four). Was it true that there were only three, and which engine types shared the patterns, I wonder. Any ideas?

    Perhaps the Class 2, 3 engines had one; Classes 4 & 5 another; and 6, 7 & 9 the last. Does anyone know for certain?

    Regards
     
  6. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Cylinder Patterns are: -
    1. 70XXX and 72XXX.
    2. 73XXX.
    3. 75XXX and 80XXX.
    4. 76XXX, 77XXX and 82XXX.
    5. 78XXX and 84XXX.
    6. 92XXX.
    7. 71XXX.
    8. 73XXX Caprotti.
     
  7. b.oldford

    b.oldford Member

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    Many moons ago I seem to recall being informed the 9F v Brit/Clan cylinders differed only in the spacing from the frames. I.e each of the 9f's cylinders is approximately 1" further out from the frame plate to those fitted to the 2 cylinder pacifics. Is that factually correct? If so, it shouldn't be too difficult to adapt the pattern set about to be made for suitable for the 9F.
    I think I may have also mentioned elsewhere that is the 76XXX/77XXX/82XXX cylinder is compatible with the Ivatt Cl4 moguls too.
     
  8. Austerity

    Austerity Member

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    ...and what makes you say that Hengist will not be main lineable Andy?
     
  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    The difference is 3/4". However, there are numerous other dimensional differences, including the position of the exhaust apertures at the frame plate.
    Obviously, the cylinder pattern for an Ivatt 4 would require different drain cock mountings than those on the Std cylinder pattern.
     
  10. b.oldford

    b.oldford Member

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    Digressing from the main topic briefly:-

    Thanks for the info. My original correspondent obviously didn't have access to all the original drawings. Nevertheless, from experience, the possibility remains that the pattern for 72010 may be adaptable for a 9F should (God forbid) one ever need a replacement.
    Hence my choice of the word "compatible" rather than "identical" having become aware of that difference only quite recently. Perhaps a better choice of phrase would have been "easily adaptable".
     
  11. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    Quite so BP, as a member of the BR Standards Group any existing patterns are available to other members, some sharing has already taken place, both ways. Would another 6MT be built, well that was not the original idea of the project but we shall see after Hengist is proven to be a useful and popular engine.

    The project has a membership where a £250 contribution entitles you to vote at the AGM and receive a membership certificate. Continued contributions result in enhanced membership.
    Contributions can be by direct debit, cheque etc monthly etc or by sponsorship of an item.
    As I said a while back, a gallon of petrol a week soon mounts up as a donation [especially the way fuel cost are increasing!!!!]
    I would urge anyone thinking of contributing to contact the Membership Secretary through the website link info@72010-hengist.org and she will be pleased to send out the information.
     
  12. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    I havn't seen that statement recently on this forum.
    It is true that at this stage it has not been deemed economically viable to have the expense of all the necessary bells and whistles required for the mainline use. My understanding is that it will be built with the equipment required as of 1964, AWS, speedo etc but not the OTMR etc of 2010.
    Should the call of the mainline be so strong then maybe the finance could be found? Anyone prepared to sponsor that work?
     
  13. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

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    My thanks to 'Std Tank' for the info re cylinder pattern interchangeability.

    Regards
     
  14. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    It was my understanding that 76xxx cylinders are a unique design - from a good source but it could be me that misunderstood what was being said.

    Have the Clan group considered fabricating rather than casting the cylinders? It is certainly cheaper and major parts of it could probably be done "in house".

    Steven
     
  15. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    That would certainly make sense, but I think the 'Clan' group are interested in helping out other groups in need, so the expense of manufacturing patterns for cylinder castings could be a better thing in the long-term for the movement in general.
     
  16. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    There are two cylinder drawings applicable to the 76XXXs. SL/DN/M-738 specifies cast iron as the material used with no cylinder liner. SL/SW-49 specifies cast steel with a cast iron cylinder liner fitted.
    Both drawings are applicable to the 82XXX tanks.
    With regard to the new cylinder fabrication for 76079 having never been done before, which outside, railway related company, passed the design as being O.K. for the loco? I would have thought that this is especially applicable with it being a main line registered loco.
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The 76XXX cylinder is the same as the 82XXX, which the new build group are making a pattern for. Once the pattern exists, it will almost certainly be a cheaper option to have a cast one, rather than fabricated. I believe that the 82045 group would have been happy to cooperate on this but the NYMR decided to go their own way and fabricate one.
     
  18. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Just out of interest, there is an image of one of the Brighton Atlantic's fabricated cylinders, awaiting heat treatment, under the "latest progress" link from the Bluebell site.
     
  19. b.oldford

    b.oldford Member

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    As someone who is very close to the pattern-making aspects of 82045 I'm sorry but I must tell you that is only partially correct. When I first discovered there might be a need for a replacement cylinder for the pocket rocket I was in the process of mulling over the possibility, or not, of taking on the pattern for 82045. (The size of Bridgnorth pattern-shop is well documented). I tried to contact the relevant people at the NYMR leaving a number of messages asking for a call back. To the best of my knowledge nobody has tried to get back to me to discuss this matter. This leaves two possibilities:

    A: As Steve stated they decided to go their own way and ignored my messages.
    B: (Which I believe is the most likely scenario) My message failed to get through to the appropriate person due to admin blunders and thus the NYMR decided their course of action.

    My apologies for taking the Hengist thread OT.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If you remember,we had a brief PM discussion on this and I mentioned the possibility of cooperation to those on the NYMR. I was told that this had been considered and rejected and this fact was conveyed to you at that time (Aug 2010).
     

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