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BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bulleid Pacific, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    The riveting was complete by 1630 and 48 rivets were installed. All of the drawings and the procedure for the machining of the hornguides have been discussed with CTL Seal and final versions issued last week. CTL Seal are briefing the machinists next week (1st week in September) and annotating the drawings. The plan is for the frames to move to the machine shop on Monday 7 September. Once machining is complete, we've got to fit the motion and slidebar brackets. The frame extensions can be fitted together with all the components fastened to the hind beam. The front buffer beam will also be assembled.

    Photos of the riveting can be found here - https://photos.app.goo.gl/hkmNnojGUucAZryq7

    A video from outside the frames is here - https://vimeo.com/452985980

    and inside the frames here - https://vimeo.com/452986679

    If you want to know what was going on, have a look here - https://www.theclanproject.org/buil...M&description=29/08/2020 - Riveting of Frames

    Ian
     
  2. Dag Bonnedal

    Dag Bonnedal Member

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    This project is one of the most interesting new build projects to follow. Detailed design studies, frequent updates with detailed photos, great!
    And a really good looking engine, that has all the possibilities to be very versatile.

    Just one small detail I would like to comment.
    In the build update https://www.theclanproject.org/build/Clan_Build.php
    there is a comment in paragraph 6 on the issue of copper versus steel firebox. It is mentioned that steel has only 30% of the heat conductivity of copper.
    As Sweden and UK were among the very few countries that continued to build copper fire boxes even after WWII, I would like to comment this.

    Yes, there is a difference in the heat conductivity between steel and copper, and for the last century steel fireboxes have been regarded as less efficient.
    But, these two facts have nothing to do with each other! Why?

    The heat flow from the fire box to the water is known, and from this you can calculate that the temperature difference between the inside and outside of the firebox plate is less than 10 deg C!
    The water side of the plate has the same temperature as the water, about 200 C. The heat transfer to the fire side of the plate is almost entirely by radiation from the flames that are 1000 C hotter than the plate.
    Thus the heat transfer is not affected at all if the fire side of the plate is a few degrees warmer in the case of a steel fire box compared to a copper firebox.
    The conclusion is that the heat transfer and thus efficiency is the same in both cases, and not affected by difference in thermal conductivity.

    So, where does this century old knowledge about the difference come from?
    The answer is scaling. Boiler scales adhere to steel like concrete to steel reinforcement bars but does not stick to copper in the same way, where it is much more easily washed away.
    A few mm scaling on the water side will reduce the heat transfer to the water and increase the plate temperature.

    Thus the answer to the old debate of copper versus steel fire boxes is water treatment. All preserved railways MUST invest in a modern water treatment plant to bring down the cost of boiler maintenance, and with that comes for free that steel fireboxes are more economical and just as efficient as copper.
    This goes for preserved railways, for main line running, I can understand that the logistics around treated water can be more complicated. But as an example, UP has installed a treatment plant in the utility van for their steam excursion train.
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Following Hengist from 'day one', the evolution of the tone of this 'ere thread, from sceptical (and at times, even derogatory) to the current general enthisiasm for this project has been fascinating to watch .... and more power to 'em!!

    Take a gander back at the early pages of the thread to see what I'm burbling on about. :)
     
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  4. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    In their defence, the evolution of the project itself (in terms of its structure, capabilities, etc) has been substantial, and I think the 'tone' here has just followed that.

    Overall (throughout vintage rail, not just 'Hengist'), I think there's been a very substantial learning curve over the decades; not just in terms of engineering capabilities (with the wider and wider range of 'built from scratch' components now possible), but also in areas like project management, etc. There was at one point a concern about certain engineering capabilities being lost (e.g. boiler construction), but I think the entire knowledge of how to go about building a complete steam loco was in some sense 'lost', and it's been to some degree re-created (how much through the surviving recollections of those who did it 'back in the day' I'm not sure; I suspect the more knowledgeable people were also the more senior, and we would have sadly lost most of them before the 'modern' era of re-creations got going).

    Anyway, it's very good to see several very capable teams out there building locos now.

    Noel
     
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  5. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    Thank you very much for your comments, they really are appreciated.

    We're starting design work on the boiler now and I hope to start putting something on the website soon. The main design changes that we are thoroughly investigating is riveting vs. welding and steel inner firebox vs. copper inner firebox. It seems to us that, regardless of the material chosen for the inner firebox, water treatment is absolutely vital. With a comprehensive water treatment system, steel fireboxes can achieve long lives.

    Ian
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Oh boy, has there ever! Many is the project now almost 'routine' which was enough to kybosh tbe ambitions of all barring the most insane comitted among our number .... and that's well before considering owt as ambitious as a new build mainline express loco. It doesn't seem that long ago many were bemoaning the loss of the requisite specialist skills necessary in performing repairs to keep what we had serviceable. Sometimes it's great for so many to be proven so completely and utterly wrong!!

    I recall Tom Rolt's preface to the 1960 edition of 'Railway Adventure', wherein he mentioned a conversation with a member who, back in 1951, had offered to cast numberplates for the four locos. "You may as well do one for No.1 whilst you're about it", he said, admitting that never in his most optimistic moments did he imagine the 'folorn and rusty object which was Talyllyn would ever again feature on the line's active list'. Just today, I watched a YouTube clip featuring three train operations on the Ffesterbahn, all hauled by 'England' locos (the youngest a sprightly 153 year old No.5 .... and sounding absolutely bl--dy magnificent, on a fairly substantial train!). If 'Festipedia' has it's chronology correct, that can't have happened since at least 1937 .... and they'd have been in nowhere remotely near the excellent condition we see today.

    I'm in an uncharacteristically upbeat mood today. It'll never last ....... :Hungry:
     
  7. northernsteam

    northernsteam New Member

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    Re the boiler work, you are looking for £60,000 to do the 'drawing work'. It sounds a lot of money but you don't say how much work is involved in that, namely, all details deciphered from micro-films probably,(an awful job sometimes), and then details drawn up and approved by engineers/inspectors, especially if the boiler pressure is to be increased. Almost a re-design and redraw exercise.
    As you say it can take 2 years and that could extend very easily. So that is only £600 per week.
    I won't ask if Varleys are interested in building the boiler but are they going to be invited to rivet the front buffer beam on?
    Impressive videos and photos, well done and thank you.
     
  8. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    Its about what the A1SLT paid for the design ( and redesign) of their boiler(s) IIRC
     
  9. Bikermike

    Bikermike New Member

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    One thing to note is that these are all "one-offs", I doubt anyone had built a locomotive in that way since probably the 1920s(? - when the modernisers got to grips with the last workshops), so on one level, the knowledge on how to build a one-off engine died out in the days of Dean

    But yes, project management is possibly as big a leap forward as the engineering stuff. Enthusiasm without the skills will get you so far (especially when it's failings can be covered by sheer hard work, or surplus stuff to use up first), but some of the stumbles of late in the big projects are showing how management is as important as bits of metal. When the clan was built there was probably less management needed per loco, and possibly even per class as the loco-building factories general expertise and stock carried the project forwards. For a wheel on the original Clan it was simply specified and then made by a wheelshop, now it needs to be specified to a degree to allow a non-wheel-maker to make it.

    Effectively, you are building late 20thC loco with 19thC-scale production. Although CT Seal may be coming the new Crewe...
     
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  10. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    Northern Steam - I didn't take any photos of the finished rivets as they need to be cleaned up. The plan is that once the hornguides have been machined, we will get Varley Boilers back to clean up the rivets - its a simple job. We will hold a SSLC/CTL Seal/Varley Boilers team meeting to discuss how we are going to assemble the front buffer beam which will be riveted on the front face. The key aspect is that there are 4 triangular gussets fitted to the rear of the beam which are currently a kit of parts. We need to discuss the best way to assemble the parts so that we don't get in each others way. On the left hand side of the image is half of a triangular gusset and 3 types of half flange plate can be seen (these parts were being sent for NDT testing as one type of each component). Another triangular gusset is on the right

    DSC_0032.jpg

    At the same time as riveting the front buffer beam, we will be in a position to assemble the hind beam components. The 2 large strengthening gussets are in the machine shop at the moment. They sit outside the frames fastened to the hind beam and also provide the mounting surface for the trailing truck bolsters (also in stock). In the image above, you can make out the hind beam immediately below the buffer beam gussets. Below that are the 2 rubbing plates that are riveted to the hind beam. The 2 manganese liners that sit on top of the rubbing plates are in stock. These have to be welded to the rubbing plates before the rubbing plates are riveted to the hind beam.
     
  11. northernsteam

    northernsteam New Member

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    Thanks ianh1, a very detailed description of future work. Is social distancing the problem or just the physical work of doing the assembly without getting in each others way?
    Am I right in thinking that the buffer beam work is done after the frames have had the extensions fitted, so the riveting must be about the final assembly work on the frames at this time?
     
  12. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    The problem is ensuring that one process doesn't get in the way of the other. There's a lot of components behind the front buffer beam in a tight space. Front Buffer Beam.jpg

    You can see that there are vertical angles inside and outside the frames. There are 2 "L" shaped angle iron brackets on the outside of the frames. 2 "U" shaped brackets running behind the buffer beam and the 4 triangular gussets. Finally we have to fit the last horizontal flanged stretcher plate that fills the area behind the buffer beam to the somebox saddle; this sits on top of everything inside the frames.

    We will probably need to fit temporary bolts to hold things in position. All bolt holes need to be drilled and reamed to size; we need to ensure that CTL Seals can position the drill. Then we need to ensure that no bolts or nuts get in the way of the rivet gun. When is the best point to weld the gussets? Note that the outside gussets will be riveted to the front buffer beam. The bolts you can see in the drawing are used to fasten the buffers.

    So the meeting will be to plan out the sequence of operations. Here's an exploded view which might help make it clearer - the power of 3D modelling!
    Front Buffer Beam 2.jpg

    Ian
     
  13. std tank

    std tank Member

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    Why are you not working to the B.R. drawings and hot riveting the entire bufferbeam area. It is, after all, a shock zone. Except, of course, where bolts are shown on the drawings i.e. holding the buffers on.
     
  14. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    According to BR drawing SL/DE/22086, the frames were assembled with cold rivets. At an early stage in the project is was decided that we would assemble the frames with fitted bolts, you can find an explanation here https://www.theclanproject.org/design/Clan_Bolts.php.
    Bolt heads on the buffer beam would not look right so it was decided to hot rivet all fixings to the front buffer beam. All other fixings will use fitted bolts

    Ian
     
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  15. std tank

    std tank Member

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    SL/DE 22086 clearly shows hot riveting for the buffer beam area.
     
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  16. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    Yes, you are correct. My reproduction is not very good but I can make out the crosses. It looks like everything in front of the cylinders is hot riveted. I need to talk to Geoff
     
  17. northernsteam

    northernsteam New Member

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    Oh the joys of being able to share difficulties with other trusted folk!! You will probably still need to work out an construction sequence I think.
     
  18. northernsteam

    northernsteam New Member

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    Very interesting to see that 'Hengist' is to be joined by 'Spirit of Sandringham' at CTL Seal.
    Could be advantageous as both seem to be at similar stages, though different emphasis's.
    Who was it commented that it will become the 'new' Crewe?
    (I now see this is also covered in the 'Proposed/New Build thread, in more detail)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  19. ianh1

    ianh1 Member

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    Big day today. Finally the frames are on the Juaristi machining station at CTL Seal. As the machine is a valuable asset, the aim is to complete machining this week. Geoff is going in for a final check tomorrow morning.

    More photos here https://photos.app.goo.gl/VKV5KDCuXTzMdyMPA



    DSC_0047.jpg
     
  20. northernsteam

    northernsteam New Member

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    Having seen the latest News photo I find it quite incredible that we actually have a massive set of frames, fastened together, and being finish machined ready for the 'Build' of Hengist. I have waited only 10 years or so for this, other have waited much longer. What a fantastic job is being done at Sheffield!! Thanks to all concerned.
     
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