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Bridge that Gap: Great Central Railway News

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Gav106, May 8, 2010.

  1. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    It's the use of "no" and "never" and "cannot"
    You only need one example to disprove.
    As I have said "the plural of anecdote is not data" - my egs only go to disprove never etc.
    I agree it will be difficult, and there will be challenges, but the continued use on this thread of "cannot" and "never" is at best lazy language, at worst a simple refusal to accept things can be different
     
  2. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

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    I think this earlier post may be giving rise to a degree of misunderstanding that is all to easy in the digital discussion...
    (Post from Tom, Jamessquared)......."Indeed, but the suggestion was about running the service as two entirely separate services and organisations, but entered through the same "front gate" as it were. It is that bit that I (and seemingly others) are struggling with as an everyday proposition"
    I don't think this is what was meant with talk of service patterns to the North, South and Through trains being the responsibility of the GCR(N) and GCR.
    I suspect we are actually all a lot closer in our thinking. Operationally the reunified GCR will be one entity, drivers from the North will be operating to the South and vice versa, stock will be operated the length of the line. The ORR will treat it as one railway. The timetable will be for the whole line.
    The Organisation for the Operation will be for the whole line. This, I believe, is the vision shared by our supporters.
    However there could still be room for the GCR(N) to have the responsibility for the infrastructure etc to the North of the MML. The GCR for the South part........ If that is what those groups want to retain, and remain as separate entities.
    It is sensible to bear in mind how things will work in the future, to consider the various models and possibilities, to consult and consider. After all, I'm sure the MS&L went through similar angst when the "London extension" was being built!
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That sounds more pragmatic: my point really was that from a customer point of view, it needs to feel like a single railway. Which means an integrated timetable, marketing, branding, ticketing etc and an integrated set of operational procedures.

    If the ORR treat it as one railway, as you suggest, then that also goes down that line. But you then get into an area where if, for example, different groups are responsible for maintenance of different sections of the line, you nonetheless need shared standards, rules, procedures etc. Pretty soon the argument for a single parent organisation starts being pretty strong.

    (That doesn't preclude, for example, having independent loco owning groups based on the line; nor for example having a separate station "friends" group at each station. But procedurally, they all need to operate under a common set of standards).

    Tom
     
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  4. Drop_Shunt

    Drop_Shunt New Member

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    I wonder if the scales will begin to fall from Flying Phil’s eyes once he reads the latest copy of Main Line magazine? An article from the top man where he talks about the main line connection being the aim of bridging the gap, with, possibly, reunification at some undetermined point in the future.

    Another article entitled Reunification, where the subject of reunification is not touched upon, and GCR(N) mentioned not at all, but the Midland Main Line, and the connection to it, is mentioned almost continually. Article ends “Our job right now is to protect what we have and build the connection to the Midland Main Line, so there is something for the next generation of custodians to enjoy and build from”.

    If you’re giving money to this in the expectation that you are going to see any sort of reunification, or meaningful service between Leicester and Ruddington, then I fear you are going to be disappointed.
     
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Or even different "gangs" who work separate projects in parallel, e.g. P'way, lineside work, C+W etc. As you say, the main thing is they're all singing from the same hymn sheet/rule book, and it looks like one operation from a customer point of view, even if behind the scenes, they're divvying up revenue to fund their own priorities.
     
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  6. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Presumably the GCR(N) would need to give permission for the GCR(S) to connect to their track and thereby the mainline connection? That's a pretty big bargaining chip

    Keith
     
  7. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

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    "Scaly Eyed" Flying Phil here.... Well I am still awaiting my latest Main Line, but I have read the GCR plc accounts and public statements, also the DCRT and EMRT public statements and they all say that reunification ie the joining together of the railway GCR to the South and GCR(N) will result in trains running along the length of the 18 mile line.
    I'm unsure how, as "Drop-shunt" seems to imply, connection with the MML will not be a result of reunification. Certainly that connection will result in many commercial and emotional benefits for the Whole 18 mile Great Central line and its supporters.
    I'm also a little puzzled as to why some people seem to regard co-operation and agreement with a shared vision as almost impossible.....
    So "Yes" I (and I am sure many others) will continue to give money to see this happen.
     
  8. Gunz412

    Gunz412 New Member Loco Owner

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    The latest issue of Main Line makes it abundantly clear the projects aim is now to simply connect to the MML. I feel cheated and deceived, and will be making no more financial contributions to the project or the railway. This is dangerous territory for the GCR. People who have contributed to the project the aim of which is (was) to connect the two railways, I am sure will not only feel aggrieved but might have the basis of a legal claim for false representation.
     
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  9. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    I see MML connection being an important milestone and despite those that may wish to cast negativity, reunification remains a long-term project full of other milestones, not insignificant challenges and overwhelmingly, opportunities so my donations will stay firmly in the bucket. :)

    One thing that I have considered however is that a railway with Loughborough in the middle, may change the habits I have always had of driving past Leicester to get to Loughborough for a return to Leicester and back. I can't recall any times where I have bought a ticket that is less than a full return or a day rover, on any heritage railway, ever. That's not meaning that I haven't alighted at intermediate stations however.
    That said, if trains one day run from Leicester North to Ruddington for a full return, I think I'd likely change my habits and start and finish at Leicester North with the likely intermediate stop at LB. If this seems logical (or illogical?) to many more than me, it may change the requirement at the terminuses for those starting and ending their journeys. I might draw an analogy to say the SVR or NYMR where I wouldn't ordinarily consider trying to start my journey from a mid-point station? (it could be that my old habits remain from the time that GCR didn't reach as far as Leicester North!)
     
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  10. Gunz412

    Gunz412 New Member Loco Owner

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    Fair comment. But having sunk some significant funds into the GCR & WSR over recent years I think I have the right to feel a little perplexed or fear that I have backed the wrong horse.
     
  11. jnc

    jnc Part of the furniture

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    L-rd, please can we not have another intra-railway p##ing match!

    Noel
     
  12. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    I remain positive and focused Gunz412. Let's not allow West Nile? Virus to spread to the GCR please oh pretty please!
     
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  13. Legrandanglais

    Legrandanglais Member

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    I think getting a MML connection is just one step along the way (many more before that). There are complex access and Signalling issues, and Negotiations with the ORR before even the MML connection to the GCR happens. GCRN already have that connection.
    What used to happen when one company had a connection to another, and both wanted access over each others lines = Running Powers GCR over GCRN and visa versa? Eventually, as we all know in a previous century, 'Grouping' sorted it out for ever and Hymn sheets were issued for both to sing along together....
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  14. Drop_Shunt

    Drop_Shunt New Member

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    The articles in Main Line make public what has been the apparent policy of GCR plc for some time, that the sole current aim of “bridging the gap” is to obtain access to the main line connection, and not to achieve the unification of the northern and southern parts of the GCR. Any such unification is now talked of in terms of a “long-term objective” (Michael Gregory’s words).

    It remains the overwhelming feeling of the railway, that is to say the staff and volunteers on both sides of the gap, that achieving full and meaningful reunification is a matter of the very highest priority, especially given the difficulties which are being experienced in the north at the moment. Be very clear though, the *GCR plc* have now plainly stated that this is not a priority for them, and that their overwhelming interest in bridging the gap is to obtain the main line connection.

    If the acquisition of the connection to the Midland Main Line is why you give your money and support to the project, then by all means crack on. If however you share the desire of the supporters and staff of the railway to operate any sort of meaningful through service along the full 18 mile length of the Greater Great Central, then you are likely to end up feeling disappointed.

    As to the question of how the GCR plc think they are going to access the main line without the acquiescence of the EMRT, who own the line on the other side of the MML, that is a good one, especially as the plc management give the impression that they are going out of their way to be publicly antagonistic to the management of the GCR(N).

    Of course, it has been long rumoured that the management in the north are not genuinely interested in reunification either (again, contrary to the wishes of their staff and supporters) so perhaps this is some sort of deal cooked up between the two organisations to avoid what might be a mututally unpleasant outcome (genuine reunification).
     
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    That's an interesting piece of news and I have to say, to an outside observer, something that was not really obvious. So whilst there are two threads running on the GCR, it's beginning to feel as though 'Reunification' (meaning of the GCR through 'Bridge the Gap') is actually a misnomer when what is going on here is simply 'Reconnection' with the main line of a piece of railway that once happened to be part of the GCR.
     
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  16. Gunz412

    Gunz412 New Member Loco Owner

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    Many people have donated large sums for the development of an 18 mile railway. My letter to the GCR Plc will be in a rather more formal tone than any post to the NP forum.
     
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  17. J Rob't Harrison

    J Rob't Harrison New Member

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    Awaiting my copy of Mainline to arrive. Dependant upon what it says, my contributions to the project may or may not continue. In other news; the GCRN magazine has announced a wishlist for the GCRN including a proper terminus at Ruddington, a south chord and possibly a station at East Leake. If it comes to it, which do I choose to support?- the railway that backpedalled on what it is raising money for or the one that everytime I visit I can see something has been improved/ is new? Tough choice....
     
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  18. Great Western

    Great Western New Member

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    So are you saying the official line from GCR is they only want the MML connection, and not the connection to the North?
    If this is GCR policy they may well if destroyed the project, whoever let that one go must really consider their position now!
     
  19. J Rob't Harrison

    J Rob't Harrison New Member

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    Moreover; who's going to donate to any project the GCR PLc are involved with, if they gain a track record of taking donations for projects and then failing to deliver them , or moving the goalposts and aims midway through? I for one wouldn't.
     
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  20. Great Western

    Great Western New Member

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    Personally I can see another WSR soap opera in years to come, what is it with men and private train sets ?!
     
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