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Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    i would hope the superheater header pattern could also be used on 251 (large boilered Ivatt Atlantic at the NRM). when 'preserved', 251 had its superheaters removed and the header with pipes direct to the steamchests substituted but the boiler still has superheater flues! as a result when running with the Doncaster centenary special in 1953 it was double headed with HENRY OAKLEY as it was a poor steamer. perhaps the NRM could chip in with the cost of making 2 headers if the type for BEACHY HEAD is compatible with 251's boiler?

    the NRM have very few sets of drawings for ex-SR locos, but by some strange fluke nearly a full set survive for the H2 Brighton Atlantics.

    Fred Bailey and his team are doing a wonderful job on BEACHY HEAD and deserve full support!

    cheers,
    julian
     
  2. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Deleted. Double post, sorry.
     
  3. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    But when 251 was restored for the Plant Centenary run, was it not rebuilt with a flat valve front end? It was originally built with piston valves. So any refitting of the superheater elements would still not give a particularly sparkling performance. Plus there would be the matter of adequate lubrication of the slide valves, which were not as suited to working with superheated steam as with saturated steam. Wear rates would be higher from what I've read.

    Richard.
     
  4. class8mikado

    class8mikado Well-Known Member

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    then as a compromise Very short elements ? - would not give a high degree of superheat, but would at least even the flow through the tube bank.
    Having flues without elements renders the rest of the tube bank pretty ineffective...
     
  5. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    That's very interesting - you're saying it was built with piston valves but had slide valve cylinders fitted at restoration? I wonder why they would do that? I can imagine it happening in reverse to return a loco to 'as built' condition. Perhaps Anthony Coulls could comment on this.
    The steaming would certainly be impaired by having empty flue tubes as being the path of least resistance all the hot gases would pass through them rather than the 'small' tubes. Ray.
     
  6. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    They were built originally with slide valves, then rebuilt with piston valves (and superheat I assume). I'm guessing that when preserved it was restored back to its original condition.
     
  7. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie New Member

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    251 is a very interesting case as I recall, and evidence of the lunacy (if you like) of considering "originality" as "as built" condition. I believe that 251 received no less than a new front end including return to slide valves, removal of superheaters, NEW FRAMES and other wildly profligate replacements either new or off other C1s to return it to as close to as built condition as Doncaster could get it. So you're left with a really odd museum piece quite unlike any C1 which actualt ever ran with, as has been pointed out, a boiler designed for a superheater, sans superheater!
     
  8. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    hi richard,
    if you have a look art the RCTS series on LNER locos, and some of O.S. Nock's books you will see some stunning logs of runs with superheated Ivatt large boilered Atlantics but with the balanced slide valves as opposed to some of the class later being fitted with piston valves. not all were fitted with piston valves. you are quite correct in stating that 251 when restored had balanced slide valves fitted. after the 1920's the earlier problems with steam oil for superheated locos (whether slide valve or piston valve) were overcome. my late grandpa worked for ESSO for all his working life and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of same. balanced slide valves (the Ivatt Atlantics had particularly good ones) as opposed to ordinary slide valves are pretty much on a par with piston valves and worked very well with superheated steam.
    cheers,
    julian
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Coming back to the question of superheater headers - I believe that the Atlantic's header is very similar to that in a Bulleid, and with minor modification to the pattern, would be suitable for making replacement headers for Bulleid pacifics. So maybe rather than the NRM chipping in, perhaps the owners of various unrestored Bulleid's might like to :)

    Also, out of interest and now the wheels are back: given the Doncaster origins of an LBSC Atlantic, how similar are the wheel patterns to those on Gresley pacifics? Various sources give 1/2" difference in diameter between an LBSC H2 and a Gresley A3/A4, but that could effectively be swallowed up in the tyres. Do the wheel centres share a common pattern, or are they different?

    Tom
     
  10. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    hi tom,
    the cast balance weights would be incorrect for a Gresley 3 cylinder loco. the eccentric crankpins werent perpetuated, being a Victorian theory about coupling rods verses conn rod throw, though of no consequence when considering re-using BEACHY HEAD's wheel patterns. i hope you havent gone LNER mad! the Brighton deserves more support from enthusiasts than Gresley fanatics! how about re-using the patterns to produce Marsh's 326 ABERGAVENNY? great for the climb in imberholme cutting! many other parts such as the cylinders are very similar to the Marsh Atlantics (though arguably the H2 Atlantics were a Lawson Billinton design)
    cheers,
    julian
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    No, not going Gresley mad, I was more curious about continuity of design from 100 years ago, rather than the thought of whether the patterns for Beachy Head might subsequently prove useful in today's day and age! As I recall, only one wheel pattern was made for Beachy Head: it was used to cast the two non-driving wheels, and then modified to cast the other two.

    As for another new build: Abergavenny would be nice, though even better would be one of the Rememberance 4-6-4 tanks. We could even call one "Bernard H Holden" rather than "Charles C Macrae" :) Would be a nice memorial and, being a big hefty tank engine, entirely appropriate for the Brighton. But I suspect that, once Beachy Head is done, our next new build will be a design from 50 years earlier...

    Incidentally, here are the wheelsets in question, showing the eccentric crankpin that was source of so much angst to get inserted correctly:

    Tom
     

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  12. ady

    ady New Member

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    not a K class Mogul then? :)
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    A Brighton Baltic would be impressive.
    A Brighton Mogul would be useful.
    A Brighton engine from the 1860s would be fascinating.

    I think we'll go with fascinating rather than impressive or useful! Though to be fair, any such decision is likely to be at least five years, and maybe ten, away. But there is definite interest in some quarters to make a complete replica Craven-era train, using the existing Craven carriages as patterns to make replicas. Would at least corner the period film market!

    Tom
     
  14. Black Jim

    Black Jim New Member

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    Fascinating if it comes about.

    How about a 'B' class 4-4-0?
     
  15. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    the Robert Billinton B classes and their re-builds were awful locos... you wouldnt want to do 'new' build of a bad design! i dont think anyone had a good word to say about the B2s even those that were rebuilt. the B4s werent much better and when expensively rebuilt to B4X didnt last long in service. all the Bs had a very poor frame design, valves that were far too small, and the B2s were underboilered. however there is a major component of BEACHY HEAD from a B4 namely the tender chassis.

    the tender chassis throws up an interesting conundrum for Stroudley fans as it had traces of claret paint on the outside of the frames. the last loco to keep it's Stroudley livery was TILLINGTON in 1917. COMO in brighton museum has black frames, and there was quite an arguement in the late 1940s (after BOXHILL was restored) as to the colour of the outside of the frames... Dr J Bradbury Winter and 'LBSC' stating it was black. BOXHILL has black frames, but STEPNEY when restored to Stroudley livery had claret frames. i must admit that BEACHY HEAD's tender has re-opened the debate. COMO was painted by the foreman painter at Brighton Works when Stroudley livery was still in use ie before the Marsh regime and his brown umber livery.

    cheers,
    julian
     
  16. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Member

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    Has Boxhill had a repaint since it was preserved as I've seen pictures of Boxhill with claret frames. Sadly I've missed seeing Boxhill on my last 2 visits to York last year so have no pictures myself but some I've seen are from the 70's and 80's. Pictures of Waddon taken over the last few years also show it having claret frames.

    As for future new builds (whatever choices they may be) I like Tom's idea of naming one after Bernard Holden. Would be a nice tribute to him.
     
  17. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

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    Yes- the Billinton 4-4-0s were inferior to Adams' and Drummond's on the LSWR or Wainwright's on the SECR. I'm amazed about the record-breaking run of B$ Holyrood in 1903. OK, it did only have a very lightweight train, but its 90mph at Horley has never been questioned to my knowledge (unlike another high speed recorded at about the same time by a somewhat better class of 4-4-0!) The only justification for a new-build B4 would be that they worked over the Lewes- East Grinstead lines in their last years, but there are extinct LBSCR classes with considerably better reputations which would make more suitable projects.

    However, were someone to decide to foot the bill for a new-build B4 or even a B2, I wouldn't criticise them. Each to his own!
     
  18. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    hi dan,
    so far as im aware BOXHILL has always had black on the outside of the frames since restored by the SR in 1947. the pictures i have of her at clapham museum show black frames...she was repainted around 1961 and has also been repainted in more recent times. the shade of Stroudley yellow used in 1947 was also heavily criticised as was the lettering. if the SR couldnt get it right in 1947, i doubt if WADDON's livery could be regarded as correct when applied by eastleigh 25 years later! i am not saying that the Stroudley livery as currently applied to BOXHILL, WADDON, and (until recently) STEPNEY is wrong. only that there is a big question mark now over the colour of the outside of the frames of the Stroudley livery thrown up by BEACHY HEAD's tender. until then, the opinion of Dr J.Bradbury Winter and the livery applied to his COMO in brighton museum have always been regarded as the definitive example of genuine Stroudley livery in all its magnificent detail!
    cheers,
    julian
     
  19. Black Jim

    Black Jim New Member

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    Oh, I didnt know about the reputation of the 'B's. Like a few more engines, could they be improved with hindsight?
    They just looked to me like an attractive looking Vic/Ed 4-4-0 , (which a lot of them are) which is too poorly represented in preservation.
    A 'K' mogul it is then!!
     
  20. ady

    ady New Member

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    good plan! :)

    I wouldn't mind seeing a D3 0-4-4T around again, but I doubt it unless i win the lottery. One of them took on the Germans you know...
     

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