If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    1,532
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    it is a great shame and perhaps one of preservation's missed opportunities that a Lawson Billinton K class MOGUL wasnt saved for the Bluebell. they were all withdrawn en masse in 1962, but werent scrapped straightaway and it was hoped by some with Brighton leanings in BR that the Bluebell might save one. unfortunately at the time the line was under Horace May's control and the sole priority was to raise the money to buy the line from BR. by the time this had been achieved all the K class locos had gone, plus much else besides of Brighton origin. the K class would be ideal for the Bluebell, and were hugely successful in service and one of the overlooked classic loco designs. the NRM have catalogued all the SR/ex-SR drawings but little survives from pre-SR days apart from a complete set of drawings for the Terriers and the H2 class ATLANTICS. much must have gone on the bonfire because i know various people who acquired sets of drawings for the ex-LSWR T9s and Brighton Baltics in the 1960s. the late Les Warnett managed to obtain a full set of drawings for SR built Lynton and Barnstable LEW, but none of these are listed in the NRM's catalogue of drawings.

    it is often forgotten that before the GWR publicity machine went into overdrive in the 1920's and 30's there was a huge following for the Brighton line and it's locos. in the same way that the IW steam railway recaptures the charm of the old IW railways, the Bluebell does the same so far as the period charm of the LBSCR is concerned.

    anyway, hopefully it wont be too long before BEACHY HEAD is fully wheeled and work can start on the tender superstructure and the boiler! close examination of various records indicates the H2 Atlantics were very much superior to their GNR counterparts. there is even a story that the scrapping of the original BEACHY HEAD was delayed at eastleigh as long as possible in the hope it might be preserved.

    cheers,
    julian
     
  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    15,527
    Likes Received:
    6,064
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Are you referring to the incident of a Luftwaffe Fw190 that attacked a loco and was apparently brought down by the debris from the boiler exploding?
     
  3. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    1,725
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There's plenty of extinct LB&SCR loco classes one can dream of recreating. A "D" tank, a C2X and an I3 would also be good to see. Also, although not representing an extinct class, a working replica of B172 Littlehampton the last active "Gladstone" would be rather lovely. This engine enjoyed as iconic a status in the early 1930s as Beachy Head 25 years later. The LB&SCR has done pretty well in terms of actual numbers of locos saved, but 10 out of the 13 survivors are Terriers and only Birch Grove isn't a Stroudley design. Although the neighbouring L&SWR is represnted by one loco less (plus the "T1" boiler), it is a more representative selection, from the Beattie well tanks and the Adams B4s through to the Urie S15s.

    All in all, however, I guess those of us with a soft spot for th Southern and its constituents mustn't complain. Look how few locos have survived from the Scottish railways or the NSR or even the L&NWR. Also, preserved LB&SCR and L&SWR locos both outnumber the surviving Gresley designed engines - and 6 of these 11 survivors are A4s.
     
  4. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    3,504
    Julian, while there is widespread regret that the Bluebell did not manage to preserve a K Class in 1962 I seem to recall that one was certainly on their shopping list at the time. However they also wanted an E4 and as there was not the money for both a tough decision had to be made - one or the other. For a four five mile line, as it was then, common sense dictated in favour of the tank loco, and who is to say that that was the wrong decision. No doubt had the decision gone in favour of the K this thread would be lamenting the fact that an E4 was not saved.

    Incidently, on the subject of the NRM having catalogued all the SR related drawings, this was in fact done over several years by a team of volunteers from the Bluebell, initiated by the need for the H2 Atlantic drawings.

    Peter James
     
  5. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    1,532
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    hi peter,
    many thanks for your very interesting reply. i have some of the very early 'Bluebell News' and there was indeed a 'shopping list' as you describe.

    hi john,
    yes, B172 LITTLEHAMPTON did indeed have quite a cult status as the last member of the class in service. it was extensively photographed and there were obviously a large number of ex-Brighton staff who held her in high regard.

    incidentally GLADSTONE in the NRM has black outside loco and tender frames! i wonder if careful removal of the paint layers will reveal 'claret'?!

    cheers,
    julian
     
  6. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

  7. Black Jim

    Black Jim New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    166
    I would suggest that a B4 or B4x would be entirely suitable for preserved railway operation as it is today & would replicate an wheel arangement synonymous with that Edwardian period that was the 'high noon' of railways, plus one for Brighton 'fans'!!
    Anyway they've got to get the Atlantic done first, a fantastic achievement so far, well done to all.
    BTW there's a couple of lovely photos of Atlantics in Brighton days , amongst others, in that new photo book about the Brighton 'tThe Bennett Collection'.
     
  8. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    1,532
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    [​IMG]ADB968008 ,


    as stated by me previously there was quite a debate about this in the late 1940's. yes, i agree the postcards show 'Stroudley' livery with claret frames. ive a few of those postcards myself. however, Dr J Bradbury Winter built a superb model of COMO which is in the Brighton Museum, and has forever been regarded as the perfect example of Stroudley livery. arguably Dr J Bradbury Winter wouldnt have had it any other way. it has black frames on the outside. the loco was completed and painted about the turn of the last century and the tender 5 years later. it is also perhaps the most perfect miniature loco of a Brighton design ever built. those who know anything about Dr J. Bradbury Winter would hesitate to suggest that the frame colour of COMO is wrong, plus GLADSTONE and BOXHILL in the NRM! but BEACHY HEAD's tender does suggest otherwise!
    cheers,
    julian
     
  9. ady

    ady New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    136
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Post office
    Location:
    South
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well thats one version, the other was the up-rush of steam. Either way the engine came of better then the plane since the plane hit the deck killing the pliot and no-one on the train was harmed. The D3 was later repaired.
     
  10. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    1,725
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No one was killed, but several people were injured, including a schoolgirl who lost an eye. You can find more abut this incident in Klaus Marx's Lewes and East Grinstead Railway, page 147.
     
  11. David-Haggar

    David-Haggar New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    19
    Occupation:
    Water Meter Reader
    Location:
    Eastbourne (75G)
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,530
    Likes Received:
    40,701
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There was quite a long discussion of re-wheeling in the last issue of Atlantic News. Effectively, there are a lot of bits that have to be attached to the loco between the frames; notably significant parts of the brake gear (air braked loco with through air, vacuum and steam pipes running the length of the loco between the frames and air cylinders to be positioned) and all the valve gear (outside cylinders but inside valve gear). All that is easier before the wheels are added, especially because there is no pit in Beachy Shed - even seemingly trivial activities like retrieving a tool you forgot to bring in with you would be much more difficult with the wheels in place. So although thoughts are clearly turning in that direction, re-wheeling will still be a way off. As Fred Bailey mentions, were the "waggly bits" on the outside, maybe she'd be on her wheels by now. :)

    Also a not-so-subtle hint about what the next new build might be, now the Long Term Plan has been approved!

    Tom
     
  13. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    292
    Dare I mention a Brighton K mogul?

    Although they do mention a Cravens era loco.
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,530
    Likes Received:
    40,701
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well, the Craven engine is what is now the aspiration in the recently-approved Long Term Plan plus "LBSCR coaches of the Stroudley and Craven eras".

    Tom
     
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Great looking work on the 4-4-2. However I am still convinced it is a case of "C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas le chemin de fer (touristique)"!

    Paul H.
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,530
    Likes Received:
    40,701
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Actually I'd disagree. Given the way traffic is at the moment, we really need two class 4s and a class 2 in action each weekend - cf last year when we needed two class 2s and a class 4. So a brand spanking new class 4 will be very useful. You could probably argue a K class mogul would have been even better, but the Atlantic essentially had a boiler readily available which the K didn't, taking probably a mid six figure sum out of the project cost.

    Tom
     
  17. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    We've been here before so I will be brief! It is a heavy, high wheeled 4-4-2 being asked to run up a fairly steeply graded 25mph tourist railway 50% tender first. Okay if you want to build one, fine but it is the answer to a question that really has not been asked! Any 0-6-0 as by Craven, Stroudley, Billington (senior) or rebuilt by Marsh would be more satisfactory.

    Paul H.
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,530
    Likes Received:
    40,701
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Indeed we have! But don't forget the boiler was available (and a tender under frame), which increased the viability of the project. As for a Stroudley, Billinton etc 0-6-0 - one would be nice, but realistically would fit the same niche as currently occupied by C / O1 / E4 / H, i.e. the medium engine duties. Despite our requirement for such locos, we do have a genuine need for larger locos, which the Atlantic will help fill. And when all is said and done, it is a nice wide-firebox class 4; that's very different from a nice wide-firebox class 8!

    Tom
     
  19. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    915
    The other point in favour of the Brighton Atlantic is that having a working standard-gauge 4-4-2 will fill a gaping hole in the ranks of Britain's preserved locomotives. In that sense, I'd argue that Beachy Head is one of the most important new-build projects commenced so far!
     
  20. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Forgive me for being blunt but so what? If it were to run on the main line I could just see the point but it is not going to. If you build new produce a horse for your course.

    PH
     

Share This Page