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Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. ross

    ross Member

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    What colour/livery is that? I imagine Mr Billinton had access to the paint store, so "correct", but its not the lbsc brown that I'd expected. (I know the brown is called 'marsh umber', but its still brown)
     
  2. jma1009

    jma1009 Member

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    The K class Lawson Billinton 9.5"g miniature steam locomotive replica, is not actually quite correct, and at least one 5"g example is more accurate.

    The stationroadsteam website has detailed pics of the Lawson Billinton miniature loco:-

    https://www.stationroadsteam.com/9-12-inch-gauge-lbscr-mogul-stock-code-5410/

    In that era of this miniature example, "fidelity" to prototype was not given the prominence it now requires; however it is a remarkable piece of work by Lawson Billinton, whilst fruit farming in pleasant early retirement, and no doubt with the help of quite a few others in the building of the miniature loco.

    (Basil Field, his chief draughtsman, and also same under Marsh, might have been one of these helpers, as he was also noted as a model engineer in later life).

    The paint job is not original on the miniature.

    In any event, I doubt Lawson Billinton had much liking for the Marsh Umber. His father rather liked the Stroudley livery and perpetuated it on the LBSCR. Douglas Earle Marsh had a bit of a job persuading the LBSCR board to do away with the Stroudley livery used by Robert Billinton and of course Stroudley!

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Station Road Stesm site suggests the current paint dates from the 1970s.

    As for my photo, it’s a mobile phone snap taken indoors in part sunlight, part artificial light - so I wouldn't pay massive heed to how it appears in my photo!

    Tom
     
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  4. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    I wonder whether he ever got to run it? I know he had plans for a railway round his land that didn’t get built...


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  5. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    Thank-you for your most helpful explanation of why the SECR E-class is being proposed for a new build project. Possibly a further consideration is that half of the class (i.e. those not fitted with superheaters or rebuilt to E1) underwent very few changes during their 40-50 year lives. Most of those few changes (notably extended smokeboxes) were made during the SECR-era. So the Bluebell will be free to paint the engine in a variety of colours representing several decades, without upsetting the livery purists. And since some of the E-class were transferred to the Central Section during the 1930s, the class is historically authentic for operation on the Bluebell.

    There will inevitably be a range of opinions, some reflected on this thread, about what engine class is appropriate for a new build project, or indeed whether any new locomotive build is the best use of resources. I rather like the suggestion of a C2X with the twin dome (steam collector plus top-feed) arrangement, a feature so rare among British designs. And my personal WIBN list would certainly have to include an engine from the LCDR. Ultimately, any project must of course both meet the needs and wants of the railway that will use it and be achievable within technical and resource (cost, labour, accommodation, etc) constraints.

    I would like to clarify that I have correctly understood one point in the above text. Where it says that the loco is "vac brake only", does that mean that the brakes on the engine and tender are both vacuum-operated? I believe that later Southern practice was to use steam brake on the engine in combination with vacuum brake on the tender. But I'm not sure whether this practice pre-dated Maunsell.
     
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  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    All the SECR locos I've been on (and I've been on a few ;) ) have just a vacuum brake control for the loco brakes. A photo I have of the cab interior of an E class shows the arrangement of the controls to be very similar to the C class and the H class.

    There's a photo here (not mine) of P class "Bluebell" that shows the brake clearly, but the cab layout is broadly similar, give or take the size of the boiler, on all the Wainwright locos. https://www.flickr.com/photos/14730981@N08/9139612912

    (Incidentally, I'm with you on having an LCDR loco: I've always fancied one of the A type 0-4-4Ts, that were a somewhat utilitarian precursor to the H class ...)

    Tom
     
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  7. JohnElliott

    JohnElliott New Member

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    If we’re sharing personal WIBNs, I’d have liked to see an LBSCR B4, but I’m certainly not going to turn my nose up at the prospect of a Wainwright E.
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Looks like we really need to sort that awkward Brighton Bogie, folks. ;)
     
  9. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    Thanks for clarifying the brake arrangements on Wainwright engines. Within the railways that used vacuum for train braking, there was clearly a division of opinion among locomotive engineers on whether to use vacuum brake or steam brake on the engines themselves.

    I note the polished wood in the photo of the P-class cab - a feature that also struck me on looking at the D-class in the NRM. It conveys an impression of quality build. In spite of the weight restrictions on SECR lines, there also didn't seem to be any lack of robustness in Wainwright's engines. As far as I know, there was no record of frame problems or other mechanical failings on the engines that Maunsell super-charged to E1 and D1.

    Your suggestion of an LCDR A-series passenger tank suggests that you wish any new build project to prioritise suitability and usefulness for heritage railway operation. The LCDR became one of the earliest adopters (in 1875) of the inside-frame inside-cylinder 0-4-4 side-tank, which became so popular in Britain during subsequent decades. The A-tanks seem to have given good and reliable service until made redundant during the 1920s by SR electrification.

    http://www.semgonline.com/steam/a1-a2_class_01.html
     
  10. jma1009

    jma1009 Member

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    I still think we need an explanation as to why the complications with the front pony truck on the LBSCR K class ruled it out as being too complicated.

    For myself, I can't see why this should be a problem. Specious arguments being used to support a particular decision?

    I think you would easily raise the extra money required for the LBSCR K class belpaire type boiler and superheating. The belpaire firebox is the clincher in my way of thinking, not the superheating as to cost of build. And when did superheated locos result in them being regarded as not required by the Bluebell? One such example returned for trial runs just this week!

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  11. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Perhaps you’d like to engage with them directly and/or through Bluebell official channels to find out.

    I’ve seen some decent explanations of why this choice might have been made on here. Meanwhile, I note that this is a decision by a private group about what to do with their time and money, subject to their hosts being willing to support them.


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  12. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Hmmm Perhaps you’d like to engage with them directly and/or through Bluebell official channels to find out.

    I’ve seen some decent explanations of why this choice might have been made on here. Meanwhile, I note that this is a decision by a private group about what to do with their time and money, subject to their hosts being willing to support them.


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  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I'm sure they *could* build the LBSC pony truck, and I'm sure they *could* build a superheated boiler. They've simply stated that they don't think its worth the time and effort. I imagine, too, like all of us, they are not getting any younger and want a project most of them will see completed. I'm sure they'll be hoping to train up a new generation during the course of the project, and that new generation can start its own project when the time comes.
     
  14. jma1009

    jma1009 Member

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    I will draw a line under this all regarding the SECR E class -v- LBSCR K class, and I look forward to seeing the wonderful recreation of an H2 Atlantic being close to completion, and a first steaming not that far off now!

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  15. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    I'm somewhat rather late in catching up and replying to what seemed to turn into a right heated debate pretty quickly, so you'll have to forgive me if I appear to be bringing up a topic that has well passed it's time in the limelight now, but having watched this all transpire from a distance I would like to state my thoughts on this matter then that'll be that.

    I like many other I'm sure was pretty surprised to learn that the Beachy Head were looking to do a SECR E Class next, as I also like many strongly believed the LBSCR K Class would surely be the next logical project to take on. The K is appropriate for the line, and of course the fact it's that one that 'got away' so to speak gives it a lot of emotive weight behind doing it much like the Brighton Atlantic.

    That being said however, though initially surprised and unsure by this new development, I now personally think it's the best choice for them to pick. Simply put, while the Bluebell may be in LBSCR territory, the SECR is just far more dominantly represented here and will in all probability remain so. Of the types of motive power the SECR had, virtually all are represented here, except that is for a large passenger type, and in that regard I can't count the H Class. Yes the E Class is just essentially a more advanced D Class, which is in the national collection, but there is next to zero chance that will steam anytime soon. So it would seem to me the E Class fills in this gap perfectly, while giving the Bluebell a proper Victorian era elegant 4-4-0 tender engine, that can still handle all the work that is required of it.

    Folks who know my past remarks will probably know as well my fondness for pre-grouping 4-4-0s, and have longed championed them as the ideal sort of new build projects heritage railways should be going for. Gorgeous to look at, yet simple and rugged enough to be useful for most heritage railways' needs. With this in mind then, it just wouldn't be right now if I didn't give my support to such a project now, would it?

    With all that said and having made my peace, I for one am right now more looking forward to seeing a Atlantic in steam in all it's glory once more, a type of steam locomotive design/wheel arrangement I dare say I love more then any other. It's a remarkable achievement to see how far they've come, and my excitement for seeing the finished article grows ever higher!

    Prefer seeing it in Southern Green to BR Black mind you, but I digress... I'll be happy seeing it in any colour, congrats to all involved with how far you've come, and cheering you on the remainder of the way!
     
  16. 2392

    2392 Member

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    Of course you do realise that you'll now have the Wilcox/Steam Beano British Railways only brigade hounding you for suggesting/liking a none British Railways livery:eek::rolleyes:.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  17. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    In which case, I will also declare myself to be Spartacus...
     
  18. 2392

    2392 Member

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    No I'm Spartacus........:Googleit:.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ah, a livery debate - I guess its more fun than a bogie debate :)

    If you look at the strapline on "Atlantic News", it is (and always has been, AFAIK) "Reconstructing 32424 'Beachy Head'". From which a couple of things are clear: firstly, that the project is seen as a reconstruction, not building the next in series (as other projects see themselves doing); secondly, and more significantly, that the intention has always been to finish the loco as it was running under BR. There are emotional reasons for that - the leading lights of the project wished to recreate the loco they narrowly missed out on preserving in the late 1950s - but there are also sound engineering reasons for deciding up front exactly what you want to build when it comes to a loco like "Beachy Head" that was changed during its working life. That doesn't preclude seeing it in other conditions, though while Bulleid and late Maunsell condition are eminently reasonable, backdating to the early SR or LBSCR condition would require more substantial changes, notably to the cab, dome, chimney, tender etc. By no means impossible, but representing more than just a livery change.

    (I should also note that in a new build where painting of components takes place as they are made, you do need to make a decision relatively early in the project).

    With regard the E class - and allowing for the fact that project still has to be formally authorised - it looks like the intention is once again to recreate a specific loco - No. 516 - and at a specific period of its life: as originally constructed in 1908. That specific loco was selected to represent the SECR at the Franco-British Exhibition of that year (where interestingly it was displayed alongside the Canterbury and Whitstable survivor "Invicta"), and was subsequently dubbed the "Royal E", frequently used as the SE&CR's Royal Train engine.

    Tom
     
  20. ross

    ross Member

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    If they had managed to catch 32424 in the late 50's, it would very likely have been promptly repainted in LBSC livery, that being the fashion of the time....
     
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