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Class 08 bump start.

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by Forest Rail, Jul 19, 2020.

  1. Forest Rail

    Forest Rail New Member

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    An odd one possibly, but here goes.

    Just been going over some of the training stuff for the 08 (iv got a refresher course coming up) and there's mention of the emergency start switch in the switch cabinet. Apart from saying that it is 'prohibited to be used', there's not a lot else. So to cure my curiosity how was it achieved? You hear a few odds and sods in the general scuttlebutt but nothing definitive.
     
  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    I believe it is possible to 'bump start' a 47
     
  3. William Shelford

    William Shelford New Member

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    I have no idea if you can bump start on 08, but I do have instructions for bump starting its LMS predecessor.
    These can be found in a thin redcovered book called "Motive Power Orhganization and Practice", by Harold Rudgard, Superintendent of Motive Power and published by the LMS in December 1946.
    Appendix "H" gives full operating details of the LMS 350hp diesel Electric Locomotives Nos. 7080 onward.
    This includes 15 steps (which occupy about half a page of small type) to be taken to start the locomotive with another loco if it cannot be started in the usual way.
    It will type these out in a post tomorrow if requested.
     
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  4. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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    That would be good if you could do that please.
     
  5. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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  6. Forest Rail

    Forest Rail New Member

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    That definitely sounds interesting to me!
     
  7. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    I believe that it involves towing the 08 to use the traction motors as generators which then power the normal generator, this then becomes the starter motor. It is a bit more complicated than that but that is the basic principle. Using the traction motors to back feed the generator.
     
  8. Fezwig

    Fezwig New Member

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    Never done as far as I know, due to the high chance that you could bend the side rods, I my railway career, I have only known for them to be jump started from another loco with the biggest jump leads you've ever seen! No other loco has the switch fitted, so no to class 47s etc
     
  9. Wenlock

    Wenlock Member Friend

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    A long time since I read the procedure, I no longer have the book.

    Obviously the procedure was written when the only other loco in the area was likely to be steam. Can't use jump leads if there's no other set of batteries to jump from.

    If I recall correctly the most important part of the procedure, other than ensuring that a sufficient length of rail was pre-sanded and that the loco was pushed (uncoupled ?), was that the polarity had to be reversed. This meant holding a breaker in (using a specially provided wooden stick) and ensuring the breaker was opened as soon as the engine fired. Presumably the procedure would only have been carried out under the supervision of an appropriately qualified fitter.
     
  10. Forest Rail

    Forest Rail New Member

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    Ye gods, that sounds a wee bit exciting/terrifying...
     
  11. DR73202

    DR73202 New Member

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    Last time I did that was with a class 11 shunter must have been at least 40 years ago.

    Reverser in opposite way to travel, someone holding the engine governer in run position, hold breaker in with wooden pole (me) and travel at no more than 2 MPH until engine started then let go of breaker.

    Biggest danger is to side rods bending or moving a crank on the axle. Only ever done it a couple of times when no other method of starting was available.
     
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  12. ssk2400

    ssk2400 New Member

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    we use to do that with the royal navy O boat submarines use the electric propulsion motor put the jackshafts in and turn the diesel generators with the electric propulsion mptor
    useful if you run out of compressed air as the diesel were air start
     
  13. William Shelford

    William Shelford New Member

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    As requested:-

    Emergency Propulsion Starting - Locomotives 7100 onwards.

    If it is not possible to start the Diesel engine in the usual manner, as a result of a discharged battery, the following procedure should be adopted:

    (i) Get hold of another locomotive and couple this to the dead locomotive.

    (ii) Close the dead locomotive battery isolating switches.

    (iii) Go to the engine governor and set the fuel rack by hand, to give a sufficient supply of fuel oil for starting by raising the "starting lever". Latch the lever in this position by means of the triangular shaped wedge plate. When the engine is running normally, the wedge plate will fall out of engagement.

    (iv) Operate the lubricating oil hand priming pump (for a least 100 strokes).

    (v) Turn the emergency starting switch wheel as far as it will go in the direction of the arrow shown under the words "Emergency starting" on the wheel.

    (vi) Move the master switch to the "ON" position.

    (vii) Move the reverser handle so that the position indicated is opposite to the direction in which the locomotive is to be pushed or pulled. For example, when pulling or pushing the locomotive forward, this position should be "Reverse". The Deadman's pedal must now be kept in the depressed position until the engine is started.

    (viii) Leave the master controller in the "Off" position.

    (ix) Fit the motor contactor operating stick, to be found clipped to the right-hand panel inside the cubicle, into the lifting lever socket on the left-hand side of the contactor.

    (x) Close the motor contactor by lifting the operating stick as far as it will go, and keep it in this position until the engine fires. To do this, the locomotive speed should not exceed four miles per hour. If the engine does not fire at the first attempt, do not open the motor contactor until the locomotive id stationary, since by doing this, the traction residual field may be destroyed and, if this occurs, a battery start will be necessary.

    (xi) Advise the driver of the assisting locomotive to move in the arranged direction.

    (xii) As soon as the engine fires, lower the motor contactor stick sharply. Remove it from the socket and signal the assisting locomotive to stop moving.

    (xiii) Move the reverser handle to the "Off" position.

    (xiv) Turn the emergency starting switch wheels as far as it will go in the direction of the arrow under the words "Normal running" on the wheel.

    (xv) Uncouple the assisting locomotive.

    When sufficient air pressure is available to close the control governor, the locomotive will be capable of moving under its own power.

    N.B. A length of line about 30 yards should be sanded either by running the assisting locomotive over the section or by hand.

    This ensures reasonable easy starting under practically any weather conditions. The locomotive sanders should also be in operation when the starting attempt is made.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  14. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    It's featured in the book "on the footplate at Bushbury" if memory serves me right
     
  15. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    It was also covered, believe it or not, in British Railways Illustrated many, many years ago. I seem to recall the mention of a massive spark as the contacts were pushed closed. It all sounded terribly exciting . . .
     
  16. Enterprise

    Enterprise Well-Known Member

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    Many years ago as a young civil engineer, I remember D8s and 9s being started with a donkey engine like this. I don't think this was common on locomotives. Why not?
     
  17. Wenlock

    Wenlock Member Friend

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    On industrial locos with air start, a donkey engine was often provided to fill the starting bottle with compressed air to start the main engine. I have used a donkey engine to air-start a Ruston 88DS, and a Kerr Stuart. I'm not aware of donkey engines being used as generators to start electric started main engines, although it is a possibility.
    In regular use starting batteries do seem to hold sufficient charge for normal starting, even if left unattended for up to a week, I have started a Drewry (class 04) after two weeks out of use without any difficulty. In my experience starting air bottles seem to lose pressure if not topped up daily, on the 88DS I used to drive I always made sure to top up the starting bottle before stopping the main engine. A donkey engine big enough to start the big engines of mainline locos would be a big beast to hand start anyway. On locos with electric transmission it makes sense to use the main generator as a starting motor rather than provide a separate starting motor.
     

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