CME 2023

Given that @1020 Shireman is in the same category as you, that suggests to me that a personal letter to Kelly at RTC might be a better bet than a review on Trip Adviser.

 

are these the most up to date correct times?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U54975/2023-02-11/detailed
Thanks
Neil

 

Looks like it, just reappeared. Two Scots in 12 mins up Shap?

 

Is that confirmed motive power for both charters?

 

Of course not! I know nothing. But out of the LSL stable I'd have thought 46100 is the one to go around the coast.

 

Should be 45231 for the Saphos charter I believe

 

That would be a preservation first, though its unlikely both operators would make it happen even if both locos were available.

 

I can't see that will do any good. She has no control over these things and can only pass on your comments to West Coast Railways who will reply that they have to do what they do for operational or safety reasons.

While I totally agree with the sentiments expressed on this forum and find my enthusiasm for main line steam has virtually evaporated (I haven't done a tour since 2018) I don't think a TOC will appreciate being told how to run their business by people who have no practical experience of running trains on the main line!

 

I have not travelled on a mainline excursion for many years. Too many late running returns home and too many miles walked as a result to say nothing of the favours asked for in order not to be stranded overnight and more because of the inability of the rail network to return passengers to their booked destination. Add the lack of provision of a true steam experience and I am off to the WLLR for a blast behind the Earl and others up Golfa. There are other venues but I do not miss the long and protracted hours spent on not getting home.

 

I was going to quit this forum but this is why I loved it so much. Nice to see thoughtful posts relevant to the discussion. I've somewhat doctored what I was going to post but here's a shortish report. Thought it worth revisiting Train Loads and Gradients too as they haven't had a mention for yonks.

Cumbrian Mountain Express 28th January 2023

The Consist and a bit of information

The train had 3 of the heavier Metro Cammell Pullmans in the consist so the 11 carriages, decently loaded, probably weighed close to 425 tons gross. Good balanced load for 46115 over the route.

Add the Class 47's 125 tons and we have a 550 ton train. That's too heavy a load for a Class 7 locomotive on today's route to keep to time, and well over the Industry guidelines for steam train lengths and load. For a Royal Scot the limits are 12 carriages; load 432 tons tare. Due to the route there's also the little known tome Information on Significant Gradients to be taken into account when Gradients en route exceed 100r. They lower the acceptable train for the route to 10 for a Class 7 over Shap.

The Guidelines allow for loads to be increased when there is:

· Relevant historic performance of the locomotive class over the route in question;

· Crew competency and familiarity with traction and route

WCR have built both in spades as they say for running a Scot over the route with up to load 12.

The addition of the diesel is the consist takes the weight so far over the maximum so will be expected to assist the train over the significant gradients.

46115 did a really exceptional run over the route on a sunny 8th August 2020. The load was 12 but ran under Covid Restrictions that reduced the number of passengers. Probably a bit over 450 tons. Noisiest run we've had behind the Scot. I'll refer to it later on. Not many of the enthusiasts were on unfortunately as we're mostly old folk and I know most weeren't prepared to take the risk even 'masked up'.

How the top and tailed train ran.

Carnforth to Carlisle

4 minutes early we got the green. We were in the middle of the third carriage. 47802 pushed the train out of the loop with minimal assistance from 46115. Hopefully not the trend for the day as it was way more tail than top. The 2 1/2 mile of 134r, Yealand Bank, was a non-event with little sound from the Scot until we were near the summit. If anyone is interested we passed mp9 1/4, the top of the 134r at 51.5 having accelerated from 40 at mp8. We hardly ever top the bank at 40+. Perhaps David will work out what horse power 46115 would have had to produce to achieve that unassisted with close to 550 tons on the drawbar. (He did for me and came up with a rough and ready 2500+ edhp. Thanks David)

Onwards to Milnthorpe, the start of the 13 mile climb to Grayrigg. If we'd had 46115+11, we'd have expected to hit the mid 60s at mp13. We got to 60 passing the position of mp10, and 76 at mp13, a speed only ever achieved by 60163 to my recollection, and that with a lighter load. (46115+12 on 8/8/20 got to 70). With plenty of assistance from the diesel we passed Milnethorpe, mp13 1/2, at 75, then lost 10 mph over the 3 miles of 172r that suggested nothing excessive from the back. We came off the mile of 153r at 64.5; the 3/4 mile of 392r at 63.9 before we hit the mile of 111r and there was a bit more noise from the front as speed only dropped from 64 to 58.

Onto the easing 176r through Oxenholme, a mile in, at 55. That would have been decent for 46115 + 11. (8/8/20 at 61). We left the section at mp19 1/2 at 54. The 3/4 mile of 124r saw us drop to 49.1. Thereafter the assistance was more obvious as we only lost 3 mph on the 2 miles+ of 106r to pass the summit, mp26 at 47. Would have been seriously noisy had the Scot been doing most of the work. It wasn't. (Managed 46 on 8/8/20).

Experience shows most times we get a charge through the Lune Gorge to hit the bottom of the 4 /12m of Shap at close to 75. Different with a diesel assisting. We passed Low Gill, 777r, mp28 at 59, but then over the level/425f we only picked up to 63 by mp30. On the level mile+ to Tebay a bit of pick up to 64 at mp31, then a max off 65.4 as we passed mp31 1/2 at the start of the 1 3/4m of 146r, Shap approach. We took 60.6 onto the 75r. (69 on 8/8/20).

Timers have an interest in the attrition on the 4 1/4 miles of 75r to the climbing summit at mp37 1/4. Definitely no serious shoveage à la Northern Belle, but at least notch 1, there for all to see on the film clips on this forum.

Speed had fallen to 34.8 at Scout Green, just after mp35, (52 on 8/8/20) and to 33.6 at mp36 (45 on 8/8/20). A little suspiciously there was no further loss of speed and we passed mp37 1/4 at 33.9 (39 on 8/8/20); then the Summit board, at mp37 1/2, sad looking thing as it is, at just over 34, diesel still working. The quietest climb we've ever done behind 46115. Next to no bits of coal in my hair or on the tables. The attrition was just under 27 mph, on a par with load 11/12. (30 on 8/8/20).

We were nearly 5 minutes early so Mick was in no hurry and basically let the Scot run down the 130f/106f/142f. We passed mp40 on the 142f at 56. Lost interest but did a few posts for something to do. By mp43 on the 125f we were rolling along at 69; at mp46 1/2, 73 and that was the max. We dropped gently down the 191r to Penrith, 70, then just hit 75 on the 184f at mp64 1/2. With green signals we rolled into Citadel at 1232, 11 minutes early. Made us laugh looking at the coal still piled high up above the tender sides after 63 miles running of which 30 should have entailed hard climbing.

The return

Despite the obvious assistance, and a general case of apathy, Bill and I decided we'd time the train for fun and listen to the note from the diesel.

Carlisle to Appleby

Wasn't long after Petteril Bridge Jn before the drone of 47802 in drive was heard and we could feel the push against the buffers as we were only a coach and a half from it. Speed rose up the 7 miles of 132r towards Low House. Between mp304 and mp303 we picked up almost 10 mph. Speed fell to 40 as it usually does over the Eden Brows Viaduct then we had some rapid acceleration down the short 132f to flash over Low House Crossing at 52.

Onwards and downwards through Armathwaite, 56, and to 62 on the level across the viaduct. Through the tunnel with the exhaust drumming off the roof and then similarly through Baron's Wood 1&2 tunnels at 55. We felt a tug as the diesel presumably backed off down the 165f. Just for information we ran through Lazonby at 56; Little Salkeld at 53; Langwathby at 49. The train then accelerated on the 330r/level to dive into Culgaith Tunnel at 57. There were other instances of speed increases on rising gradients inconsistent with unassisted steam haulage. We rolled into Appleby 2 late for our Water Stop. Time from Carlisle 44m 20s. Summary is the diesel assisted a lot of the way.

We were off the platform so couldn't see what was happening up front. We assumed water was being taken. One thing all steam locomotive drivers agree on is that if there's an opportunity to take on water you do. Reason being anything could happen later in the journey. We were very surprised to be told that no water had been taken there. Rather indicative of the level of assistance being provided by 47802.

Appleby to Ais Gill

We left 3 minutes late with the diesel ticking over down the 176f towards Ormside. We passed mp275 at 49.4 and for a mile and a half there was no assistance and speed fell to 42.3. Through Helm Tunnel and the drumming off the roof was there for all to hear so we were back in top and tail mode doing 44 on the 100r. Over the easing 166r/200r speed rose to 53 at Crosby Garrett and through Smardale. The weather turned misty.

Usually speed falls on the continuing 100r. We were doing a good 47.5 at mp268. With proper steam haulage the run through Waitby Cutting usually sees a drop in speed but it only fell to just over 45; Kirkby Stephen was passed at 45.2, the Signal Box, mp266 1/2 at 46. Then the top and tail effect was really evident as we stayed close to 47 on the run to Birkett Tunnel. Drummed our way through there and accelerated to 50 by Mallerstang. Would have been some run if it had been steam hauled only as speed held in the mid 40s to mp261. We crossed Ais Gill Viaduct at 46 and then drifted around the curve to pass mp260, the climbing summit at 41.5, then the Summit Board, that is in a seriously dilapidated condition these days, at 42.5. Think that was due to easing of the Scot.

Elapsed time from mp275 to 260, the Blue Riband Section was 19m 7.4s; to the Summit Board 19m 29.4s. Sub 20 minute climbs are a rarity and certainly not possible with a Scot and 550 tons. Elapsed time from Appleby was 24m 39s against a schedule of 24 minutes. We don't often get close to the scheduled time with Class 7s and 8s with 11/12 up. On balance more tail than top.

With 100 tons less and in sunny weather on 8th August 2020, 46115 'did' the Blue Riband Section in 19m 29s, climbing summit speed 40.3. That really was an exceptional run.

Ais Gill to Hellifield

We accelerated to 46 on the level/165f into Shotlock Tunnel, 46; Moorcock Tunnel 55. Garsdale on the 288r was passed at 48 and no speed was lost on the almost mile of 330r into Rise Hill Tunnel, 48. We crossed Arten Gill on the 330f at 52; Dent Head on the 264r at 42. Through Blea Moor Tunnel, 400r at 40 ish then slowed for Batty Moss Viaduct, 16 on; 22 off. Through Ribblehead Station at 27 then it's a long 100f all the way to Settle Jn.

No need for assistance from the diesel as we drifted through Selside, 59; Horton-in-Ribblesdale 57; Taitlands Tunnel, 61; Settle Station 60; Settle Jn 60. The timing on the Blea Moor to Settle Jn section is tight but we only lost a further 2 minutes to schedule but drifted into Hellifield Loop 11 minutes late at 1625. Not good as the water stop was tightly timed for us to get out at 1632 before the Carlisle-Leeds Service, due at 1636.

Nothing was said on the train about the situation regarding water here but if as has been said the supply was frozen, surely it would have been known about before we got to Appleby as the Hellifield watering infrastructure belongs to and is maintained by WCR and would surely have been checked before we arrived. Not a good situation as the Scot had already covered 78 miles, pretty much its max range if it had been working reasonably hard. With 35 miles to go and Wilpshire Bank in the way, not taking water showed us how little the Scot was likely to do for the rest of the day.

Hellifield to Horrocksford Jn

The Carlisle-Leeds Service arrived at Hellifield at 1642, 6 down and we didn't leave until 1647, 17 late. We have to get to Horrocksford Junction before the Rochdale Flyer that crosses over at Horrocksford Jn returns into Clitheroe Station. 1701 was the time we were booked through the junction but there is a safety margin as the Flyer wasn't due to leave the Junction until 1715. As it was, to keep to time, we technically had 14 minutes from a standing start at Hellifield. For those unfamiliar with this route, its 13 miles and a bit to the Junction Signal Box on a freight only line with a speed limit of 45. 47802 was doing most of the work and we got there in 19m 27s, just as the Flyer was running down to the junction from Clitheroe Station. So all was well.

Horrocksford Jn to Wilpshire Summit or thereabouts

We were only 5 down through Clitheroe and with some brisk mostly powered from the rear, we approached Whalley 4 down. With plenty of assistance we climbed away from the arches to pass Langho at 41.5 and on the 81 1/2r accelerated to 44 by Wilpshire Tunnel, left at 43. Speed fell on the 86r and we ran through Ramsgreave and Wilpshire Station at 30.3. Looking out of the window it seemed damp in the cutting but we've been up there in worse weather with big Pacifics and had no real problems. 4-6-0 and 11? Shouldn't have been a problem.

Wilpshire Summit to Preston

We were held for a short time at Daisyfield and were 3 down at Blackburn. 47802 shoved us over the 3/4 mile of 286r after Cherry Tree 53, to Pleasington, 59. Rapid dash down the grade to Houghton LC, 64; and Mintholme LC, 68. On time through Bamber Bridge, 39 and ran through Lostock Hall, 30 before trundling down to Farington Curve Jn, 6 early. We were held at the South Jn and arrived alongside Preston P6 only 2 late.

Out of interest Control managed the shunt manoeuvres to detach the diesel from the rear and run it around and detach 46115+POB from the front promptly. WCR's guys did the brake changeover and Control made sure 86259 was on the front and ready to leave at our booked time.

Postscript

If anyone who was on the train wishes to offer any alternative views, happy to read their take.

 

I agree fully with above and it is interesting to read the full report that shows assistance throughout. Most of non-travellers can only assess from YouTube, which shows the Scot working hard up Shap, this would appear to have been the exception. I for one accept the reality of a diesel where there are operational reasons, but definitely prefer them to keep their nose out of proceedings. My recent experiences with Vintage Trains have been just this - there is an effort to ensure they don't contribute to proceedings. LSL seem to be the same.
As Big Al states, Shireman's report shows this was a top and tail throughout and this is concerning. Steam should always be the primary motive power.
The question is why? If the Scot wasn't match fit, it shouldnt be on the train, simple as. A railtour should not be used as a test train, Carnforth has other locos in the stable. They have a test route on the Carnforth, Hellifield, Blackburn circuit. This is an itenery that has not required a diesel in the past, famously so - why this time? If water was suspected to be an issue, why wasn't it taken at Appleby? West Coast representatives are on this forum, if there is a simple explanation then it would take a lot of the heat out of this and I suspect the majority would understand if there is a genuine reason.
I am booked on the 11th, if there is a repeat of this, then I will be disappointed. If a diesel is needed then they should roster 35018, that is the only loco capable of taking 11, plus diesel, without assistance, anything else and shoveage is guaranteed.
I have always booked on the Winter CME, but heavily assisted steam up Shap and the S&C isn't for me, especially not at £115.

 

Completely agree with what you say. Gossip on the train/platform at Appleby was that we had slightly overshot the water column and the necessary setback was then impossible as the doors were unlocked and many were alighting. Others more knowledgeable than me can comment but that does sound plausible. The only other thing I would say is that the "frozen" scenario at Hellifield sounds unlikely as I am sure the prevailing temperature was around 7/8c minimum. Again I guess we'll never know.

Have to say I do find the whole WCRC/RTC total lack of communication on the train operating quite frustrating. Are Les ,the train manager and the stewards actively discouraged from telling people what is going on, and the reasons for it, or do they know as little as the passengers? I really miss the authoritative and friendly communication you normally get on other (non RTC) steam trips. And yes, I am well aware that those of us who are bothered about these things are in a minority but a larger one on this trip than many others due to the reasonable expectation that it would run solo, and the steam performance interest on Shap and Ais Gill.

Many thanks to @1020 Shireman for fully documenting such a sad and underwhelming day.

 

We're optimistic for the 11th. Doesn't look like the weather should be an issue. No frosts. Crystal ball and new strands of seaweed with long distance properties being delivered on Monday.

 

I will make just one comment having read all the ill informed comment on here about diesels on the back. It would appear that the decision was taken late in the day and West Coast must have had a good reason. They had already contracted with the tour operator at a price and adding a second loco and driver would have just eaten into their profit for no gain. I will quote Dick Harry’s opinion back in the 80s that there was no realistic chance of running steam on the mainline beyond 1995 but here we are almost 30 years later and moaning about it.

 

A valid point of view then and one we shared. But in 1995 Open Access came along, thanks of all things to the EU. Not a discussion for this thread.

 

I was just making a point about how we should be thankful for what we have got. Dick’s predication was based on loss of steam age crews and cost of maintaining enough locos

 

That is fair enough, but if it's a late decision why not communicate that to those on the train? I am not against diesels on a train especially in the 21st century railway environment. I am also fed up with a lot of the debate on here bemoaning diesels on the back, usually from people who are not on the train and have stated that they have no intention of travelling. However, in this case people had a high and valid level of expectation there would not be one based on previous runs of a popular repeat itenary, which hasn't required a diesel previously. This is probably one of the few enthusiast orientated trips left and it interfered significantly in 2 of the 3 significant climbs (which is the USP of the trip) and there is no obvious reason for its presence.
I think the biggest issue is the lack of communication, one comment from someone who knows, would put this to bed. I guess the big test is the 11th and if one appears then. As one of a group of us who is travelling I hope not, but if an explanation is given (as per the VT trip in April) I would perhaps understand why.

 

Previously, if a planned steam trip went "badly wrong", e.g. no steam loco available or curtailment of the trip, passengers would get a letter or email of explanation from RTC (and hopefully still would). The fact that RTC have not contacted passengers to explain why a diesel was added to the rear "at the last minute" suggests, by imputation, that such an action is acceptable to RTC without the need to explain. That may, or may not, be the case but it is clearly not acceptable to some of RTC's passengers - one unhappy passenger is one too many! Passengers, who want it, deserve a detailed explanation of how and when the events unfolded. As a general point, if this can be done verbally on the day (but then followed up by email) so much the better.

It is down to RTC to inform passengers and not WCRC who are effectively RTC's subcontractor. I too feel sure that WCRC will have made the decision for a valid reason, if they inform RTC then RTC can, and should, inform the passengers. Vague statements like "it was an operational issue" will only heighten mistrust. With few exceptions passengers will not be employed delivering mainline steam services, so like it or lump it they will have to accept the validity of WCRC decisions. We on the other hand, from the comfort of our armchairs and equipped with hindsight will always know better.

Let's hope the WCME on 11 Feb is diesel free.