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CME 2023

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Oswald T Wistle, Jan 6, 2023.

  1. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The one the starts in the north usually seems to have a diesel for some reason.
     
  2. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's probably the Manchester start. Ditto for Liverpool.
     
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    More likely that the loco working the inbound ecs remains on the stock to assist shunt moves, provide ETH / heat and be in position for return ecs working to carnforth base.
     
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  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Just what I meant. My answer was too brief to be clear.
     
  5. Steamie Boxes

    Steamie Boxes Member

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    I've heard mention of both 5X's being used on one of the January WCMEs. Is there any truth in this?
     
  6. neildimmer

    neildimmer Resident of Nat Pres

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    Suppose it depends on winter maintenance, with the price of coal is it cost efficient? a few years ago the first CME of the year was double headed from Manchester i believe
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
  7. alastair

    alastair Well-Known Member

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    @Romsey , sorry but are you talking about 21 Jan trip or 28 Jan? Many thanks
     
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Shunts at Carlisle don't always appear 0n RTT as sometimes it's left to local control to decide what they want to do with the stock, either leave it in the platform, put it in the A siding or take the whole lot to Upperby. All three options can be done without a diesel, but being winter a diesel might be there for heat.
     
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  9. 46203

    46203 Member

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    Propel a 12 coach train to Upperby? Things have obviously changed.
    I recall one occasion with 6233 propelling 2 POVs, the support coach and the observation coach, to Upperby. As we passed the power box, Kenny Harper i/c signalling, appeared at an open window and showed 2 fingers at us whilst shaking his head. His intention, I learned later, was to highlight the fact that only one coach was allowed in a propelling movement to Upperby even though the lead coach (observation) was equipped with brake controls. His choice in the number of fingers displayed was understandably interpreted by some rather differently to his intention...
     
  10. 61994

    61994 Member

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    RYTC Website advertising 46115 for the first WCME on 21st Jan
     
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  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Sorry Ralph, you cannot take the whole train to Upperby without a loco at either end. If you could it would involve a lot of running round for the loco involved and would probably take for hours to accomplish.

    Peter
     
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  12. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    A couple of emails from RTC. Discount of £30pp on WCMEs 28 Jan, 11 Feb and 18 Mar (destination Appleby) use code WCEL before 4pm on Tues 17 Jan. (Leave the turkey at home and take Christmas Cake!) WCMEs on 28 Jan and 11 Feb now picking up at Watford Jn.
     
  13. Romsey

    Romsey Part of the furniture

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    21st Jan.

    28th Jan shows ECS to and from Line A and a shunt (Schedule C49278) via the north end of Carlisle (CE335).
    Euston - Carlisle
    10A Pool
    28/1/2023

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U54974/2023-01-28/detailed
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C49223/2023-01-28/detailed
    Carlisle ECS
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C49279/2023-01-28/detailed
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C49278/2023-01-28/detailed
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U54976/2023-01-28/detailed
    Preston - Carnforth
    Loco & PO Brake
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U54979/2023-01-28/detailed

    I'm not certain what the local instructions are, but from memory propelling movements should not pass more than one running signal and have a "competent person" with a radio and/or access to a brake valve at the leading end of the formation.

    Cheers, Neil
     
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  14. alastair

    alastair Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks, fingers crossed this one will run unassisted.
     
  15. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    With platform space at Carlisle severely limited in the Spring some trains will be stopping at Appleby instead. The RTC website shows the CMEs on 21 Jan, 28 Jan and 11 Feb all stopping at Carlisle but those on 18 Mar and 13 May run via the Upperby curve and London Road Jn and head for Appleby. Normal service is resumed for the CME on 03 Jun which is planned to stop in Carlisle.

    The “standard” times for the Carlisle stop are 12.40 (arrive) and 14.20 (depart). The RTC website shows the corresponding times for the Appleby stop as 13.50 and 15.15. [The path for a CME leaving Carlisle at 14.20 also departs the Appleby water stop at 15.15. So, beyond Appleby the CME slots into its usual path.]

    What MIGHT the implications be for the CMEs stopping in Appleby?

    If running RT, leaving the WCML, at Upperby Bridge Jn, should be a couple of minutes before the usual scheduled Carlisle stop (12.40). Having travelled almost 63 miles and climbed 900ish feet the loco tender will need to be replenished before running another 30+ miles and climbing 450ish feet to Appleby. [The possible exception is BIL with her higher water capacity]. So, water required but where and when?

    The Carlisle to Appleby running time is typically around 45 mins. Scheduled to arrive at Appleby at 13.50 suggests departing “the curve” at 13.05. This would mean following the southbound Carlisle-Chirk log train (6V38) which passes London Rd Jn at 13.00 and Appleby at 13.48. [6V38 is regularly cancelled but when it does run it is often very early. Running RT or a little late will impact the CME.] Leaving the WCML at around 12.40 and departing London Rd Jn at 13.05 leaves sufficient time to take some water from a road tanker on the Upperby curve (normal practice) and possibly service the loco.

    Arrive RT at Appleby (13.50) then allow say 10-15 mins for all passengers to disembark (14.05?) before propelling the train into the siding to allow 1E65 (Carlisle-Leeds) to use the platform (14.16). Once the service train is clear the CME could, subject to servicing being completed, return to the station platform. Additional water could be taken on the station either before or after the move. Not sure where and when the stock would be watered as this is usually done in the platform at Carlisle) – thoughts please! Everyone back on board and ready for a 15.15 departure for Ais Gill – Simples!

    If only it was! What about the passengers and what about the weather?

    Carlisle has a wide platform that can accommodate the full length of the train, the stock usually remains in platform 3 and passengers can disembark at leisure. The station has a vast roof, plenty of seats, available food and drink and plentiful toilets. Pubs, cafes, shops etc are all within 5-10 mins (level) walking distance. The CME is in Carlisle station for 1hr 40mins.

    Appleby is a small country station with shorter platforms (around 8 coaches) meaning a “walk through” for some passengers to disembark/board. There is very limited shelter, just a few benches and small toilets. The town is situated about 10-15 mins walk away down a steepish hill (and then back up). There are just a handful of pubs and cafes. The CME is in and around Appleby station for 1hr 25mins.

    In bad weather passengers can remain on Carlisle station and stay dry or make a quick dash to a very nearby pub. At Appleby whatever the weather passengers must leave the train (for at least 20 mins) whilst the loco firstly propels the train into the siding and then draws it back into the platform after 1E65 has passed. That is unless the train has a diesel on the rear that could draw the train into the siding. Subject to safe operating protocols and completion of any necessary inspections this could permit those passengers who wish to do so to remain on board. Was that a cry of anguish from South Wales?!

    Not to be too pessimistic about Appleby as a destination it is certainly worth a look. From memory I have been on two trips that took a break in Appleby and both times was blessed with good weather – lucky Oswald! On another couple of occasions, I have been on trains that were running late and had to drop back into the siding to allow a train to pass. The most recent (7/8 years ago?) involved all passengers leaving the train before it reversed into the siding. Many, many years ago in a similar situation we were allowed to stay on the train.

    These are the ramblings of a bored Oswald on yet another very wet day. It may pan out just like this or it could be something completely different – we will find out in due course.
     
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  16. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I'm half tempted to do one of those that miss Carlisle for the sake of the Upperby curve, especially if the Watford PU continues for those, but the prospects at Appleby do not seem appealing.

    In an earlier life I had some involvement in the theory (though not the practice) of risk management. I do wonder what exactly makes the risks of propelling a long train with staff (including volunteers) on board acceptable but the same with passengers not acceptable, even with someone at the front end having control of a brake.

    Edit: the RTC website does show the 18 March and 13 May CMEs keeping the Watford PU, but the provisional timings show the "extended stop at Appleby" as actually only 85 minutes, inadequate time for the suggested activities there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  17. Waterbuck

    Waterbuck Member

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    She's not pleased ..... I get the Mrs to go (21st) and now its " I thought you said 10.30 from Preston, but now it could be 7.45 to Blackburn ! !"
    Ahh the joys of the main line.
     
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  18. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I've been to Appleby several times, once on the Tornado plandampf. If it's a nice day and you are mobile, a walk to the river, the Moot Hall, the almshouses and hopefully a view of the castle is well worthwhile. The Appleby Hub is a very nice community run cafe ; there are others of course.

    If it is p*****g down there is the drinks only Midland Hotel next to the station. Maybe someone should ring them up because they do pies on special occasions.

    @Waterbuck I wondered about that when they switched the route around. Maybe you might be better off on 28/1 or 11/2, Preston both ways?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
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  19. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think you would water at Upperby as the Brit did on that famous day where Galatea held it up on the trip up Shap. If I remember correctly the Brit tour had an Appleby break whilst we were on the "prison" CCE where nobody was able to get off anywhere all day. About 17 hours if you were a Euston pax. And of course the loco for the CME normally takes water at Upperby anyway during the layover.
    I am sure @torgormaig can confirm but I believe you cannot propel with pax on board or even on a 5Z move with I suspect the two moves in and out of the siding would be.
     
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  20. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Seeing that you asked, my understanding of the situation is this. Propelling with passengers on board is not the problem as such. Unless there is some form of exemption in the local Sectional Appendix, propelling past more than one running signal is generally not permitted, be there passengers on board or not. At Carlisle you are allowed to propel one vehicle, usually a POB, attached to a steam loco for turning and servicing. At York we are allowed to propel two vehicles within certain limits. I suspect the issue at Appleby is not propelling as such but the fact that when stabling in the North East neck you are going into a non passenger rated siding. Now there are some locations where, if you have goods line authority, you can take a passenger train provided certain safety conditions are met, but I have never known such authority be issued at Appleby.

    I am open to correction on this if anyone has more detailed local knowledge

    Peter
     
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