Crewe Heritage Centre for Sale

So here we are - twelve months on from the time that Cheshire East Council originally told us that the situation regarding the Heritage Centre should be 'done and dusted' and nothing has changed.

All that we know is that (apparently) a draft lease was sent to LNWRHCo. in the summer and there has been no progress since.

Still, perhaps no news is good news...............

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

Peter,

I am just an interested and curious local resident who, not for the first time, has today stood on the edge of the new Tesco site and looked at the mothballed rolling-stock parked up in the sidings.

Where could I get some accurate information on who owns the stock and what, if anything, is happening here?

Many thanks.

AB

 

I suggest that you go here, Andy, and send your enquiry via the 'Contact Us' section:

Welcome to Crewe Heritage Centre

One piece of stock whose ownership I can shed light on is the maroon GUV parked in the siding opposite Exeter West. This belongs to one of our Group members and gives us a storage/workshop facility as well as housing the manual simulator for the signal box. We know it is looking a bit tatty, and repainting was scheduled for 2012, but has had to be postponed owing to the dreadful weather we have had this year. Hopefully 2013 will be better and we will be able to get the job done.

As a local resident you might also like to ask Cheshire East Council what benefit will be derived from the arrangement they propose. As far as we can see there is none, and the whole exercise has been a complete waste of Council Taxpayer's money.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

Thanks Peter - will do that but can you give me a lead as to what Cheshire East's proposal is, or the benefits suggested?

Andy

 

Their proposal was to offer a 125-year lease of the site in, we think, the naiive belief that there was someone out there with a vast pot of money just waiting to come and set up a high-quality heritage attraction. In the event there were (apparently) only two bidders for the lease - Crwe Heritage Trust who offered a premium of £100 for it, and LNWR who offered no premium.

However, what Cheshire East Council failed to appreciate is that Crewe Heritage Trust already have a lease on the site which does not expire until 2041. Legally that lease takes precedence, so whoever was to get the 125-year lease (other than Crewe Heritage Trust) would not be able to make free use of it until 2041.

If you can find time I suggest that you read the whole of the thread on this forum, but in the meantime have a look here:

Index of /chc/

Here you will be able to read much about what has been promised over the years but never delivered. For more detail on the current situation I refer you particularly to the BBC Radio Stoke interview. At the end of this you will note that no one from Cheshire East was available on the day, but they promised to put someone up later. We are still waiting.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

You can also find details of the Cheshire East Council report here:

http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.u...$01CreweHeritageCentrereportPART1.docA.ps.pdf

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

We understand that Cheshire East Council have now reached an impasse in their negotiations with Mr. Waterman, so it looks as though he won't be getting the 125-year lease of the Council-owned part of the Heritage Centre site.

Given this fact, now is the time for those of you who live in the area, or who are actively involved with projects at the Centre, and who wish to see the Heritage Centre protected for the long-term, to bring as much pressure as possible to bear on Councillors, and any other relevant parties, to urge Cheshire East Council to grant the 125-year lease to Crewe Heritage Trust.

Since the Council stated unequivocally that the site is surplus to their requirements, and Crewe Heritage Trust were the only other bidders for the lease, there would seem to be no logical reason why they should not be granted it.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

I think your assumption here, that politicians are logical, is probably unwarranted...

Noel

 

You may well be right, Noel. But Cheshire East Council shouldn't be allowed to just leave the situation 'up in the air.' They are the ones who decided to set off on this course, and the residents served by Cheshire East Council are surely entitled to see some sort of final resolution of the situation.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

I have this afternoon made the interesting discovery that a new Town Council for Crewe is to be set up later this year. Apparently, once this Council is set up, Cheshire East will be able to transfer various of its assets to the Crewe Town Council.

During the strange goings-on of the last twelve months or so, the Councillors directly involved with Crewe, and the people of Crewe generally, seem to have been supportive of the idea of allowing Crewe Heritage Trust the opportunity to show that they can turn the fortunes of the Centre around and transform it into a viable attraction again.

Thus this would seem to be an ideal opportunity for people to lobby the candidates for the new Town Council positions and ask them to support the idea of responsibility for the Heritage Centre site being transferred to the new Council. Most of their details can be found here:

Crewe Town Council Elections 2013 - Crewe & Nantwich Labour Party


Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

Details for Labour Party campaigners can be found there...

 

Sorry, Ralph W. but that 'Crewe Guardian' piece concerns elections in May for Cheshire East Council, not the elections for Crewe Town Council, which will take place in April.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

Much of the contents of this thread is a warning to those involved with heritage railways who give preference to promises rather than paperwork, you could get embroiled in the same!

I do though get the impression that Mr Waterman has lost a lot of interest in railways. Gone are the days of the mid 1990's when you could not open a magazine without reading about his latest acquistions or his grandiose plans. Many of the former were either subsequently disposed of or in some cases were never his in the first place, whilst few of the latter came to full fruition.

It would appear that most if not all the rolling stock with which Mr Waterman now has an involvement is now vested with The Waterman Railway Trust L&NWR - The Trust but no listing of the rolling stock is given. The locomotives are probably GWR 5553, GWR 6634, GWR 7027, BR 46035 and BR 25909 along with perhaps others. Of those listed little has been heard about plans to overhaul 5553 - still at the WSR I believe and progress with 6634 at the SVR is slow if progressing at all. 7027 and 46035 remain untouched at CHC as they have done for many years - I hope they are paying rent if occupying space they are not entitled to. 25909 is interesting as it was allegedly being worked on at Carnforth by a WCRCo employee in his own time. That employee has now moved on but the locomotive remains. I just wonder if Mr. Waterman might be in for a surprise when he wants to move it and WCRCo present him with a bill for its storage - promises not paper work again!

What does not appear in this thread, unless I have missed it, is any detail about the carriage overhauls taking place on the site. I know, for example, much work was done on Collett BCK 6705 by ? but not LNWR Heritage as I understand. Is this the same ? that have just done BR RMB 1813 for Riviera Trains? If so, where there / are there any problems with their lease?

Going back to the first point, are proper contracts in place for all the rolling stock on site in addition to that occupying the areas legitametly occupied by LNWR Heritage? If the battle with Mr Waterman is to be won it is no good saying we have agreed that, for example, LNWR Crane RS1020 can stay on site rent free if you can't produce the agreement showing this and that the rent is 'one peppercorn if requested'. Mr Waterman will just say he has the same agreement for all his rolling stock, paperwork rather than promises again will prevail.

 

Can I ask what will happen is lnwr goes? And what future the site would have with out him? Many people only go to get a glimpse of the locos lnwr are working on so with out it you have.......... a ATP looking a mess, a signal box with a couple of things to look at (nothing changed since 1990's, miniature railway which is ok, an exhibition hall that doesnt have much to look at, and exeter box (which I love) when it has all the demonstrations.
Loosing waterman would in my opinion ruin the site. I can be wrong tho. So what would be the plan if you were to have the space lnwr currently uses??

 

I think you are, perhaps, misunderstanding the situation. No one is suggesting that every bit of space currently occupied by LNWRHCo. (legitimately or otherwise) would have to be filled by other exhibits. Areas could just be turned to lawn or garden to simply make the site tidier and more attractive. Given its current state I have suggested that it could be renamed 'The Barry Scrapyard Experience' or 'The Vic Berry Experience.'

The Exhibition Hall does pose a bit of a problem because part of it is used by LNWRHCo. and the other part does earn the Centre money by being used for the twice-yearly railwayana auctions, which have become an established part of the calendar. So it isn't really possible to fill it at present with complicated exhibits, because they would all have to be removed (where to?) to enable the stands and seating for such an event to take place.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

Yes but in crewe if you want to have a picnic you go to queens park which has recently been done up, also with a play area and its free, and if you go to the model engineers club at nantwich you can enjoy a diferent selection of locos on sundays. So for local people there is no comeback attraction. And people are not going to travel a far distance for another miniature line which is very closed in and you cant see much. Ok I understand the site looks an absolute tip at the moment, but my question is what does crewe hc want to be?? If your telling me that it is just an auction house 2 times a year and that has to take priority then fair enough. How busy does tue auction get? 200 people? Could a marquee be hired for those 2 days of the year? Like they did at toddington car park for gwsr 175?

 

Martin makes some valid points, although displaying 'out of ticket' engines under cover at Crewe would be difficult, as the only covered track is that in the Exhibition Hall that is currently used by LNWRHCo.

In my view, to be successful, a centre like that at Crewe needs to have a number of established exhibits but also needs the space and facilities to enable special events to be staged. That can be done at present, but there are limitations.

One area where I feel the Centre could be successful (if tidied up and better presented) is that of corporate hospitality/entertainment. Some years ago such an event was staged one summer evening, and I went along to open up Exeter West and explain it to the visitors. The event began with a sherry reception in the Exhibition Hall - the participants were then split into groups and guided around all the parts of the site before adjourning to the large meeting room under North Junction Box for a buffet meal. They enjoyed the experience very much, but the exercise was never repeated. To me that was a lost opportunity, and if anyone from the Trustees or the 'Friends of Crewe Heritage Centre' is reading, perhaps you'd like to take up the idea again when the place is tidied and better organised.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

Clearly Mr. Waterman is not as inclined to put money into railways as he once was. If he was then one would have expected more progress with The Waterman Railway Trust locomotives. Thus, what would happen if LNWR Heritage start struggling? Would Mr. Waterman bail it out? If Mr. Waterman was willing to let it collapse I doubt if anyone else would step in particularly with the lease issues unresolved.

So, LNWR Heritage quits the site. A tidy up of site and paperwork could well be followed by a return of lapsed volunteers and the arrival of new ones. The 125 year lease issue should then be soon resolved and the council has the problem off its hands. Actual restoration work then takes place only in the workshop on CHT or similar vehicles only with rolling stock not in a displayable condition either disposed of or moved out of the way. Further emphasis on signalling should help as it should become the must visit regularly location for those with such interests.

Mention was made earlier in this thread about STEAM at Swindon. Much criticised by enthusiasts for dedicating the once workshop area and the display area where 50033 once stood for corporate hospitality and similar events but its worked. CHC could do similar with the part of the exhibition hall used for the auctions.

The great advantage of the site is that local volunteers can pop in for a few hours frequently as it is only a short bus ride away. Consequently, progress can be made much quicker with smallish projects.

I'm not convinced that many people go to get a glimpse of locomotives being worked on for two reasons. Firstly, they are probably in the workshop where access is normally prohibited. Secondly, they are in bits.

Looking from the outside I have to say that the sooner LNWR Heritage go the better. In this instance having commercial and heritage activities on the same constrained site will not work.