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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    the point of preservation surely is to tell the story of what went before. In which case there's a huge hunk of GWR history missing, virtually the whole 19th century bit. The same may be the case for other railways but I was making the case in reply to Mr Shimmin's opinion
     
  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    The GWR did well as regards the total number of locos preserved but I believe that there were more types of LNER group locos saved?
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    In which case, a lot more thought is required about how we do something to recreate the audience so they see something of that early history.

    A parallel. On Sunday night, I was at the Proms, where Bach's St John Passion was performed. What made the performance interesting (above & beyond the sheer quality of the music) was the way the Passion was presented as it might have been performed in church in Leipzig in Bach's lifetime. That included music by other composers at the beginning and end, plus congregational hymn singing. These were minor changes, but had quite an effect on how this audience member experienced the performance. Unfortunately, the BBC4 broadcast doesn't include the rehearsal we had, in particular the speech by the conductor.

    Some of that imagination, trying to get visitors out of their 21st century mindset, would do no harm.
     
  4. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    I would guess that theres more pre 1923 LNER than GWR. There are several from the NER, 2x 2-4-0s, a long boiler 0-6-0, the J21,J27, Q6/7, the GER also has a 2-4-0 and an 0-6-0 tank plus the J15, the GN has an N2 and the Stirling number 1, The GC only has 2, plus one each from the GNSR and two from the North British.

    On the GWR from the same period, Dean Goods and City of Truro, after that I'm struggling. I know that some of the 28xx 2-8-0s and 43xx 2-6-0s are pre group, but they were built over a long period. As has been said, there are a lot of GW locos but they are all ones from the later period which were running when Barry started.
     
  5. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    It's another instance of needing to realise that it is impossible to do everything. Just as Radio 3 has (for me) rather too much Telemann and much too much Liszt at the expense of, say, Scarlatti then there is an overall excess IMHO of G.W.R. stuff. However, unlike programming a concert, it is difficult to change what hardware happens to be around.

    PH
     
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  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Not possible. The GWR literally have everything from narrow gauge original railway plus locos all the way up to broad gauge recreations.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    True. But pretty much nothing from the 19th century standard gauge, which was the by far the largest part of the system. There is pretty much no GWR equivalent of, say, a Stroudley Terrier or Gladstone; the NER 2-4-0s or long boiler 0-6-0; the Midland Spinner or 2-4-0; Hardwicke or Columbine; the Adams Radial Tank or T3; the Metropolitan A class; the Stirling Single etc. In other words, next to nothing to represent what the standard gauge GWR was like pre-Churchward, except one or two late locos or things like the Dukedog that have been so substantially modified from their original form as to be unrepresentative. In that sense, the 19th century history of the GWR is very poorly represented in preservation.

    Tom
     
  8. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    indeed your first sentence is the nub of it. On facebook over the past few days photos have been posted of the GWS WW1 ambulance trains recreation which looked superb and shows what can be done, and showcased some of their rolling stock overshadowed usually by locos (some of which are portrayed in their post GWR phase). How such a portrayal would look with something double framed at the head can only be imagined. Even the livery of the 19th century is lost...even the Aberdares were turned out in full livery (same livery as CoT was when originally preserved)
     
  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Equally there's no existing SER locomotives in original form and only one still existing in SECR.

    I rather think the argument for building more GWR locos pales in comparison to some other constituents and pre grouping companies.

    There's a dean single being mooted - haven't we got enough across the eras and railways we have?

    I'm all for new builds but I don't subscribe to the thinking that the GWR section of our industry needs any more than it already has.

    Is there really that much of a gap between the broad gauge locos up to the earliest standard gauge locos that we can't fill in the gaps without another GWR replica?
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Guilty of adopting a Certain mindset when it comes to newbuilds as all being workhorses and should be thus capable of the best performance/utility/reliability.
    Havent had much time for the pre grouping designs as a result, but there is a place for making an authentic reconstruction of a turn of the century Loco. with genuine mediocre performance, primitive valve gear and controls, non existent cabs etc... otherwise how can we truly experience what these machines we're capable of and the amount of effort and skill required to achieve it...
     
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  11. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    The relative representation of different pre-grouping companies is not a subjective matter, it is simply a matter of number crunching...
    Counting the raw numbers of locos preserved versus size of the various companies fleets allows us to "rank" the companies by relative representation, as I did on a previous thread here: http://www.national-preservation.co...re-in-preservation.887450/page-2#post-1757008
    There is some dispute about the actual numbers I used which I tried to clarify here: http://www.national-preservation.co...re-in-preservation.887450/reply?quote=1757390
    My summary was "Main conclusions on railways badly represented:
    - Barry, Cambrian, Rhymney and Midland & Great Northern have no preserved locos at all.
    - GCR, LNWR, NBR, Caley and GSWR in particular very badly represented.
    - Ignoring very early locos the Furness also has no preserved locos from the "core era" and the LNWR is even worse represented.
    - Ignoring locos built post grouping, the Midland is also badly represented.
    And on the positive side:
    - Smaller companies do relatively well with even one or two locos preserved (SDJR, NLR, TVR, NSR, Highland, GNSR)
    - Including the early locos, the Furness does well for a small company.

    Considering the companies absorbed by each of the Big Four, the Southern-absorbed companies are much better represented than any of the others (noting that the LBSCR is skewed by the large number of Terriers). Interestingly despite the NER/LNER museum, the LNER-absorbed companies on average do slightly-worse than the LMS-absorbed companies. The GWR constituents do worst, although that story is complicated by lack of a clean break at grouping."

    Regarding different classes (or "representative types" as I termed it) I did another analysis slightly longer ago: http://www.national-preservation.co...s-in-steam-in-2016.652267/page-7#post-1416128
     
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed, but the GWR was a considerably larger company than the old SER (and I speak as a fan of that latter company).

    I believe that in the nineteenth century, the GWR was the largest pre-grouping company in the country, or if not one of the largest, and almost nothing of it exists, at least as far as locomotives are concerned.

    I'd agree with you with regard the post-grouping GWR. Broadly, I find new-build projects like the Grange / Night Owl / County a bit meh - just building more and more modern engines scarcely different from those that already exist. (Not my money of course, and good luck to those building them). But pre-grouping, and especially pre-20th century, the GWR is very poorly represented, particularly considering its status as one of the, if not the, largest railway company.

    Ultimately, replicas will get constructed only where sufficient people get enthused enough to fund them, and that is not necessarily only on the basis of purely historical significance. But it does seem a shame to me that amongst all the GWR replicas under construction, they all seem to perpetuate a view of the GWR as being on the one hand Broad Gauge; and on the other, some kind of chocolate-box vision of the 1930s with chocolate and cream carriages being pulled into country branch line stations. At the very least that ignores a significant part of the GWR's history, but more insidiously, also serves to airbrush that story out of view, in preference to supposed history that goes straight from Brunel to chocolate box.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  13. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Tom is a quite right, the current crop of GWR Churchward replicas is a bit pointless and adds little to the telling of the GWR story, much as I'm looking forward to them , they are a bit of a Trainspotter wet-dream.

    Realistically there is enough Broad Gauge existing to tell that story but there is so much missing pre-Churchward.
     
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  14. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    The numbers on the GWR side have been skewed by the fact that a lot of ex GWR locos got to Barry and were rescued as a result, but they are all of the Churchward/Collett era onwards, no old stuff at all.

    I suppose the same could be said of the Southern as there are a lot of two types, LBSCR Terriers and Bulleid pacifics, the latter, again mainly due to Barry
     
  15. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    Dean single or a sir Daniel would get my support!
     
  16. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    in any case it isn't a competition. Just making the case for particular replicas and I'm quite happy to do the same for other railways where gaps exist. I can't understand the attitude "you can't have more GWR locos because there's so many now". It's not as if the hypothetical fund providers would say "OK lets build something GER or NBR instead". We could have both rather than either/ or
     
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  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Reading Tom's post made me realise that, in view of the Stanier 'new broom' at the LMS, we're fortunate to have as much from it's constituents as we do.

    Since we've had the odd chinwag over Churchward's great leap forward, note that the lack of much GW kit from the 19th century is the flip side and reflects the standardisation policies of the company, in both locomotive and gauge terms. Both this and the early cessation of construction anywhere but Swindon had it's effect, putting everything not built there at risk within a fairly short time. It's amazing that on a line where standardisation was such a mantra, so many earlier machines lasted into BR days.

    If the situation here is frustrating, spare a thought for Irish enthusiasts.

    Surviving into the 1960's, CIE classes 33/60/257/332/351/355/(842*) from the GS&W, 458 from the D&SE, 463 from the CB&SCR, 551/573/594/623/650 from the MGW, 342**/372***/400****/670/700/710 all GSR and "Pat"***** are all extinct. The scrap lines of Inchicore and Mullingar were no Barry Island.

    In Nothern Island, classes U1&2/V/W/Y from the NCC(LMS) AL/P&PP/PG/QG/QGT2/QLG&QNG/RT/S2/SG/SG2/SG3/T1&2/U/UG/VS from the GNRI all made it to 1960 (in a couple of cases, annoyingly close to 1970) but are all gone. Everything containing a 'G', plus the AL were 0-6-0, class RT was an 0-6-2t, all else except T1&2 (4-4-2t) were 4-4-0s

    * Number not carried. This was 0-4-2st "Sambo", the Inchicore shunter
    ** A design of pure GS&W concept, developed and built in GSR days
    *** The first 'Woolwich' Mogul was ceremonially outshopped in MGWR colours, but repainted immediately without entering service
    **** 2cyl rebuilds of earlier 4cyl GS&W design
    ***** The Cork coal gantry 'loco'. A gear driven 0-2-2t of 1884 built from an even older tender!
     
  18. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Even genuine Churchward is a bit thin on the ground, with the exception of 2-8-0s and 2-8-0Ts. We have one 4-6-0, the Star, one 4300, 5322, 3 surviving 4500s, but from the lot built the year Churchward retired, the 1361, and that's about it I think. No large Prairies, for example, they are all the later modified design, and no 4 coupled engines.
     
  19. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    A pedant writes: you can trace the LNER's corporate constituents back to 1796 - if you consider their seafaring interests. The company in question was the Grimsby Haven Co, one of the corporate ancestors of the GCR.
     
  20. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    City of Truro?
     

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