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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

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    The 53xx's sent to France were all built using secondhand boilers. I haven't looked more broadly over the rest of class, so this may have been due to the exigencies of war. I would expect though that once withdrawal of earlier Churchward engines began in the 30's, smaller parts were more widely recycled for new construction. It's a shame Swindon didn't include the date when they stamped a new number in!

    I think 'recreation' is a suitably ambiguous term.
     
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I guess different audiences have different meanings for words; for example renewal or rebuild etc. What an enthusiast means by the terms is not necessarily what the workshop engineer or accountant might mean, nor what the historic meanings were.

    FWIW, I try (when I remember ...) to use as follows:
    • Restore - to take something substantially degraded, with parts missing etc, and make it operational again. For example, a locomotive coming out of Barry after many years gradually rusting would be restored to service
    • Cosmetic restoration - as above, but with the intention of just making it presentable (for example, for display) but not to the full standard needed to be operational
    • Overhaul - to take something substantially complete and return to good operational condition. For example, a previously restored locomotive that is out of ticket but substantially complete might be overhauled for another period in traffic. A still operational, but tired, loco might have an intermediate overhaul to give it a new lease of life.
    • Refurbish - to take an original part and give it such treatment as to enable it to function again correctly. For example, you might take an axle box, melt out the white metal and cast and machine new white metal - that would be refurbishment of the component to me. Both overhauls and restorations might involve refurbishing many components, and building new many more.
    • Renewal - literally "to make new again". Not a phrase much used by enthusiasts, but of historic interest because railways tended to have capital and renewal funds. In that context, a loco built on the capital fund would increase the overall stock of locos; a loco built on the renewal fund would maintain the current stock, but quite possibly the renewed locomotive might bear little resemblance to the withdrawn loco that had been renewed. In modern parlance, I tend to use "renewal" in relation to infrastructure: if you take life expired bullhead rails on wooden sleepers and replace with flat bottom on concrete, you have "renewed" your permanent way - you haven't increased your length of track, but given something life expired a new lease of life.
    • Build - to construct something substantially new from raw materials.
    • Rebuild - another interesting historical term. Different companies seem to have used it slightly differently. Generally it is when a loco is modified so as to have a substantially different form. An example might be the Maunsell rebuild of a Stroudley E1 0-6-0T into an E1r 0-6-2T. Sometimes boiler changes to a. new design get marked as rebuilds, but not always: changing a Stroudley Terrier from an A1 (with Stroudley-pattern boiler) to an A1x (with a Marsh pattern boiler, plus other changes) is generally called a rebuild and didn't historically go back the other way; but on the South Western, old Adams locos took new Drummond-pattern boilers, and then seemed to shuttle between Drummond and Adams pattern at each overhaul without any change of class designation, and certainly without being said to be "rebuilt".
    Over time, locos (and other equipment) might go through many stages. As an example, locomotive 21c159 "Sir Archibald Sinclair" was built by the Southern Railway in the 1940s. After several overhauls, it was rebuilt by British Railways into a substantially different form. Following withdrawal, it decayed for many years at Barry before being restored at the Bluebell Railway. Following a period in traffic, it is now undergoing a substantial overhaul; that overhaul includes refurbishment of many parts.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  3. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    "Recreation"

    Could I sugggest: as the tersest single single word I can think of . There is a double meaning of the word as in "recreation ground", arugably not too misleading as the motivations that inspire the recreations are pleasure, conservation of a public good and exercise both physical & mental.

    As one word it is a bit too general out of context and would - for first use in any piece of communication - be better expanded to:

    "Recreation/s using original parts where practicable"

    (Obviously exact words can be substituted: using/recycling, parts/components - a boiler is a major component as a washer is not.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  4. jnc

    jnc Part of the furniture

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    In the loco field, often used for components, not of complete locos, I think? Not so in other areas, e.g. refurbished cars and computers.

    Good job on the list!

    Noel
     
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  5. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    "Renewbuilds" ought to cover it...

    Richard.
     
  6. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    Surprisingly recently the plates we would now take for granted as arriving accurately thick and level for locomotives didn't. In the late 1870s the plates needed for the power bogie frames and the cradle between
    the bogie frames came to Boston Lodge for Merddin Emrys not directly from the iron works but via Lancashire where Adamsons the boilermakers had flattened them and then planed them - the planing
    presumably through a planing machine - having done both these operations they were marked with
    the setting out before being dispatched to the Ffestiniog.
     
  7. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    Engineering often tends to only be as good as it is seen to need to be. So I'm not surprised that frame plates were not flat until a specific need arose. (See the ww2 issue with Merlin engines needing to be redrawn for Packard to make them, as RR hand-assembled them with each part honed to fit the build).

    On the subject of nomenclature, on another site, someone was talking about refurbishing gardening tools, which felt wrong to me, as no moving parts were involved.
     
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  8. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    How does one furbish, and is it legal?

    RPSI, FfRS, TRPS, RERPS, RHDRA, WLLRPC
     
  9. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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  10. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    IIRC a few Bulldogs were built new with second hand boilers after the new boilers intended for them were instead fitted to Aberdares.
     
  11. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    I don't know, would you be gruntled by the result?
     
  12. QuornYard

    QuornYard New Member

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    Having seen the number of locos that are currently dismantled at Loughborough MPD, I wonder how they ever manage to mantle them all again.
     
  13. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    RPSI, FfRS, TRPS, RERPS, RHDRA, WLLRPC
     
  14. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

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    Well I did a survey recently and this is what I could find out....
    Italics show how things have changed since April
    "From published information, but will, no doubt, be delayed due to C19 work stoppage. Obviously the Covid situation has had a far longer and deeper effect and so all the locomotive work – particularly outside contracts, have been severely delayed.



    70013 Oliver Cromwell will be overhauled by the End of 2020. Boiler has not yet gone to Tyseley but firebox new stays installed so completion mid/late 2021

    78019 BR Class 2 should have its refurbished boiler and be finished Mid/End 2020. Boiler still awaited. Completion now 2021.

    63601 04 should be dismantled, overhauled and back in service Mid 2021. Boiler lifted, chassis overhaul started, completion likely 2022

    7027 Thornbury Castle major work to start after the 04 but it is a big project so 2024/5. Major work started Could now be completed by 2023/24

    45491 Black 5 major work done, finish 2021 probably. Boiler tube instalation virtually completed

    48624 8F Awaiting overhaul….to be decided. Still to be decided

    Jinty 47406 out of ticket in 2020. Now in Mountsorrel Museum

    Black 5 45305 out of ticket in 2020.

    Ivatt 46521 out of ticket in 2021

    9F 92214 out of ticket in 2023

    Hall 6990 out of ticket in 2025

    BR2 78018 out of ticket in 2026

    Std 5 73156 out of ticket in 2028

    8F 48305 out of ticket in 2029

    Sir Lamiel 777 (NRM) to be overhauled at GCR

    It is anticipated that 34039 Boscastle could be ready 2022….."

    Sorry for the thread digression!
     
  15. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    ahh, but are they going to be mantled? presumably there are parts that will need to be tributed back to one place?
     
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  16. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    Applying Airplane nomenclature, Rebuilding Class 22 Diesel D6332 from it's engine is definitely a "Rebuild."
     
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  17. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have emailed the GWS a couple of times suggesting they place a final 'It's completed' update on the Saint website, but never received any response. :(. Feel free to try contacting them yourself (If enough people do so, perhaps they'll actually take notice ;)).
     
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  18. clinker

    clinker New Member

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    All restorations 'Require a large proportion of the work done' even prevoiusly restored loco's. So would 'Maindy Hall' have 'Required' new cylinders? or Wheels? or sections of Frame? If it was to remain as 'Maindy Hall'? It should be remembered that 'Mainlining' like We have at present (Disregarding Covid and Brexit) would have seemed inconcievable when the 'Saint' project first started (Back then some boilers were still being used on their BR 'Ten Year.') and the project, despite the 'Swindon Standardisation' has still taken far longer to 'Happen' than 'Tornado'
     
  19. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    I have just sent an email -- mentioning that I am a life member of the GWS and that I was present at the launch for contributors on 3rd April last year.
     
  20. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

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    No need to apologise, Phil. The news that 34039 could be ready in just a couple of years is worth a "like" regardless of the title of the thread.
     
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