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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. clinker

    clinker New Member

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    What was done by the railway companies in the past should be recognised as what was done by railway companies in the past, the only TRUE way of re-creating the past is to start with a clean sheet of paper, as Tornado started. Scrapping existing loco's in order to have a loco that no longer exists is like naming your son after your great grandfather and pretending that he's the same person, there's only one person that you're fooling, be happy with what has survived and build TRUE new builds if you want something that hasn't. The last sentence of the above post probably proves my point more than it does yours, after all, IF St. Martin had been re-built into the first Hall class then 'New Building' Lady of Legend would have taken little longer than restoring Maindy Hall as the loco that it was, but that has proved not to be the case.
     
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  2. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    3901 class to be precise. Apparently the works was flat out in the machining side, so taking most of those components from fairly new Dean goods made a lot of sense. Its basically a 4500 boiler.
    3901prairie.gif
     
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  3. clinker

    clinker New Member

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    Not sure about the LMS input, but spot on for the GWR loco's.
     
  4. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    1) Saint Martin was always different from the rest of the Halls
    2) It was a reasonably involved conversion by the GWR, not just bunging new wheels on.
    3) Saint Martin was a late production Saint with curved frames/footplating at front and under the cab. Lady of Legend is being reconstructed as an early series Saint with straight frames so its a rather bigger conversion anyway.
     
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  5. Forestpines

    Forestpines Member

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    I've always thought the V4 looked a bit awkward. Something about the boiler looking too small.

    Now a Gresley C9 - how about that for a new-build project...
     
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  6. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    There was a K4 named Lord of the Isles
     
  7. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    The rebuilds of old were often virtually new engines, the SECR D1/E1 comes to mind and the Patriots, all that happened was a particular loco went into the works and another emerged with the same number. An accountants rebuild, the cost of a new was charged to the capital account, a rebuild to revenue so I assume the cost was tax deductible from the profit and loss account.
     
  8. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, but the point was that the name is not original to 62005

    Keith
     
  9. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    I don't think it ever carries it now I'm pleased to say
     
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  10. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Active Member

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    Even regardless of tax considerations, sometimes you can ease open the clenched fist of one budget holder when another one is proving too difficult. It's all a question of wording.
    "Yes, quite right Lord Director, sir. We can't afford to splash out on a new locos, sir. We should make the most of the ones we have, sir. We are just going to slightly rebuild these old ones, sir...."
    It's the quickness of the 'and what deceives the heye...
     
  11. fisher

    fisher New Member

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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have always thought the two V4s were good looking engines. Slightly narrow boiler barrels lead to good looking locos in my humble opinion. In addition to the V4s, the LBSCR K class, Highland Clans and Manson 4-6-0s at the GSWR have similar "narrow boiler" style.
     
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  12. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Its a bit more complex than that... I'm not at all sure I fully understand this, money not being my speciality, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about the word renewal. These days the meaning shades towards "repair something so its as good as new", but historically (I looked at late 18thC dictionaries) is often closer to "replace with a new one". The understanding I have at the moment is that *expansions* to the fleet were paid for from the capital account, and repairs paid for from revenue. But also some revenue was allocated to the renewals fund, and the renewals fund was used to pay for replacements for worn out locomotives. In the majority of the 19thC this worked quite well, because the replacement for worn out 2-2-2 No 301 would be another 2-2-2, which represented the value of the original capital stock of one 2-2-2 locomotive and quite logically was given the same number. So when the original 301 wore out it was replaced with a new 301, and that was a renewal, paid for from the renewal fund. Repairs, and even rebuilds in the interim would not use renewal fund money, and were paid for from revenue, and capital expenditure only came into it if the fleet was expanded. When a locomotive was renewed they might reuse parts from the old one if they were good enough, but essentially it would be considered a new loco. A straightforward rebuild, on the other hand, was considered a repair.

    Now not every railway historian seems to have really got their head round this, and worse it may even be some records are incomplete, so that's why there's shed loads of confusion. It gets worse yet from about 1890 on, when they stopped wanting to replace like for like, and were replacing say ten 0-6-0 freight engines held on the books at, lets say twenty thousand pounds worth of capital, with eight 2-8-0s, costing twenty two thousand pounds. Then the board had to approve two thousand pounds extra capital expenditure.

    So locomotive work could be paid for by

    1) Capital, expansions to the existing fleet.
    2) Renewal fund, replacements for the existing fleet.
    3) Revenue, routine repairs and rebuilds.

    Then you can add to that all the complications of reuse of secondhand parts, but the re-use of secondhand parts has minimal connection to whether its a repair, a rebuild or renewal.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    Going to get shot for this - but...

    There is some commercial sense in building a 6ft 2in Thompson Pacific.

    From the A1 Trust we have the 118a boiler developed for Tornado and Prince of Wales which is a perfect match for the later A2/3 and A2/2 class in their later life (for the original 118 is developed from the P2 boiler used for the A2/2 class and then used with minor changes for the A2/3 class).

    From the P2 Trust we have the patterns for all of the wheels and we also have the full valve gear arrangement. From Tornado we have a virtually identical kylchap and smokebox setup (with a little additional length at the front end).

    From both A1 and P2 we have virtually every pattern or cad drawing required for everything else. No really. It is astonishing how much overlap and sharing of parts there is between P2, A2/2, A2/3 and A1. That's because they followed, one from another and were effectively one line of development from Gresley through Thompson to Peppercorn.

    Being an LNER Pacific, A2/3 and A2/2 also use variants of the standard 8 wheel tender, and a new Thompson tender is only different to Tornado's if it was an A2/3 by requiring a fully snap riveted example.

    The A2/2 could use the same type as Prince of Wales as the original P2s rebuilt into A2/2 kept their original tenders - and 2001, which is 2007's closest comparison, kept its beaded tender.

    Where a Thompson Pacific falls down...Thompson's name is mud with most of the LNER fraternity, rightly or wrongly. There will be a few hardcore supporters who'd like to see a Thompson A2/3, but not enough to pay for one.

    Hence why the V4, V3 and K3 are the ones being looked at for the future (though I thought the V3 was going to be done first? Or have I mixed up my Vs?)
     
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  14. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    You could always try setting up a website and kick off a crowdfunder for a set of "Edward Thompson" nameplates. If the comments section of the website is <50% positive and the crowdfunder comes up short, you've got your answer!

    In all seriousness, pattern/drawing availability aside, ETs pacific designs were hardly asthetically appealing to many (me included). Those positive developments in the steam circuit attributable to him spawned Peppercorn's designs which ironed out many of the shortcomings. As we have a couple of 'Bongos' Thompson's legacy is already represented by a successful design and his good ideas are incorporated into the later successful designs. That said, although it's not a design that 'floats my boat', I wouldn't bet against an L1 new build at some future date. Even the Gresley lobby would probably agree with me.... once the new-build W1, water tube compound version (of course), completes it's first season of successful mainline service.
     
  15. aron33

    aron33 Member

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    I
    I'd go for a Thompson Pacific.
     
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  16. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Heresy!!! Convene the inquisition and collect the kindling! :Punch:
     
  17. aron33

    aron33 Member

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    I didn't expect a Spanish Inquisition.
     
  18. aron33

    aron33 Member

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    ...but I would also take another GCR design: The Robinson 9Q-Class 4-6-0
     
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  19. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Spanish-Inquisition.jpg.cf.jpg

    Mind you..... There are a few Robinson designs I'm quite partial to as well. Wonder if a "Sir Sam Fay" could be made to work as well as they looked? My guess, unfortunately.... no more than a "Claughton" or "Cardean"
     

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  20. aron33

    aron33 Member

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    [​IMG]
    Definitely.
     
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