Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.
the A1 Locomotive Society are planning to build a V4 after they have finished the P2
And indeed have already started gathering parts.
The thing is - how sustainable long-term will their funding model be? As more and more of us run down the curtains to join the Choir Invisibule, will anyone younger actually want to come in behind us and fund the building of a V3 and a V4?
No consolation, but I put money forward towards the P2 and I have set aside a similar amount for the V3. I am confident I am not alone (railway enthusiast in my 30s) and I can see people coming forward to learn the skills all the time.
I know we have a perception that our movement is in trouble - and maybe it is in some ways - but I think we also forget how good we are are getting people interested from a young age, for life. There is something in the water, or the coal, or something - and we do see the younger generations coming through more and more.
I have faith we'll see the P2, we will see the V4 and V3 in due course.
Well them there curtains will have to wait awhile, definition of ' young' required here, I am nearly 60 and happy contributing to several new/rebuilds, all of which I sincerely hope to see in revenue earning service or at least 'chuffing'........................................................................................ ahem, I always wear a hard hat
In my case, 53 and with long-term health issues. If I get to ride behind the P2 - I'll be happy.
Well hang in there - it’d be nice to raise a pint or two with you behind said P2 on the mainline!
On a sort of related note, and something I found myself wondering about a couple of hours ago, what's the expected working life of new-build loco?
I found myself thinking specifically about Tornado, but it applies to other new builds as well. Given that we have locos of 120 years plus happily pottering up and down heritage lines, which weren't ever intended or treated as heritage pieces when working, how long would a new build for heritage purposes last? Will Tornado still be hauling tours in 150 or 200 years time?
Which is encouraging, really, in the spirit of that old saw about old men planting trees they'll never sit in the shade of.
I'll hold you to that, Simon...!
Given that the 100 year old locos still running have had bits replaced so age isn't really an issue, the answer to your question is quite simple - for as long as people are prepared to put the time in to keep them going, same as the old ones!
Please do. Us founder club members have to stick together! Lord knows when we will get another opportunity to experience new steam on the mainline that we've contributed to.
I`m 33 and have no plans to throw in the towel. But, nobody knows how the future will be (luckily), either for us or the new build projects. But I choose to look bright at the future, I think that is the best we can do. Pessimism can kill all the enthusiasm, and nothing goes forward if set the brakes on.
Did they use the same castings?
Right then, I'll start making plans for how to build a Fowler 2-6-4t, a 2P, original Scot, get the remnants of the binbrook crab and new build/restore it, get the spare Jinty at the MRC and restore that, build a shed to base them in overhaul them etc, get about 6 LMS coaches and restore those to run with them on a pres line and a rake of 10mk1s overhauled to mainline condition to run tours with.... About £20,000,000 should do it
I'm in. Just swap all that for a Thompson L1, Thompson O1, Thompson A2/3, get the B17 tender for a new Thompson B2 from the Manchester United Trust and finish that, build a shed to base them in and overhaul them etc...!
Ehh... it wasn`t my opinion to build as many new build locomotives as possible.
My reply was meant more like a personal view, maybe I was not clear enough on that.
I meant that I will not turn my breaks on and stop supporting new build projects ,even if someone should tell me it`s a waste of money, they will never succeed ,bla, bla, (thankfully it`s not so many of them)
Every time I visit the new build projects websites ,it`s always delightful to see brand new, shiny, machined parts to a "master puzzle" and thinking "I have contributed (a little) to this"!.
And thinking about that this is happening in 2018 is absolutely unbelivable! Happy times for a keen steam enthusiast!
From no. 60163 it went forewards like a "Tornado"
It seems to me that with new builds there are a number of basic questions:
1) what is the loco for?
2) what is its selling point?
It seems to me that the success of a project depends on having an answer to both questions. Tornado, P2, 84xxx, all have a clear purpose - in the case of the 84xxx they are clear that it is a loco for midweek low season when trains need to be run but volunteers are thinner on the ground than they might be. Some projects are clearly locos for high days and holidays all of which is totally valid.
In some cases the selling point is the desire to ‘fill a gap’ in the story of the railway. In some cases that can be enough, in other cases there needs to be a compelling ‘what benefits does this new build bring’.
I can remember back in the 1980s when Taliesin was looking for funders they presented the case as being not just about filling the historical gap of no single fairlie, but also about low season traffic with the costs associated with running a double fairlie vs hunslet or also but highlighting the age of the hunslets and alco. They also sold the idea of having an extra power bogie as well. Now in the end I am not sure how many of the benefits have come through but it was enough to get the loco built.
Tornado/p2 are very good at doing the same thing.
The bug would I think be possible to sell at a number of levels. It would be quirky but it would also tell an interesting story - it’s association with Drummond could be explored - and as you say Edwardian engineering. Drummond seems to have a bad reputation as a person. So an opportunity to shine a light on Edwardian engineers.
The bug would be a really good example of a ‘high days and holidays’ new build. That is to say that it isn’t something you would use to run your bread and butter services but rather as something to attract people for something different. The Ffestiniog has done this with some of the coach new build replicas.
The bug as people have said would be easy to hire out for footplate experiences, galas, photo charters and the like, it is essentially as very small auto coach. As we’ve seen people are happy to pay for brakevan rides, so why wouldn’t people be happy to pay for a ride on the bug? I was looking at 813’s website and that was hired out for a wedding party so again there are opportunities. Want to travel like an Edwardian railway director for the day... maybe it comes of reading too many airline magazines but you effectively have a ‘boutique’ train trip.
Also, as a loco that doesn’t have that high mileage it would have lower costs, it wouldn’t be trashed within an inch of its life within a couple of years. So why not. Something different.
It is amazing how much power and support you can get into a project if you press the right key. For example by making a great slogan. The P2 company have their earlier success "Tornado" as a very great benefit, and I think they have made a very smart slogan for the next new build project.
It`s not quite a little power in their words; "Help us build Britain`s most powerful steam locomotive". I think they have drag much support by that!
As a footnote on having a hook - general steam navigation deciding to unrebuild it is a perfect example. If it had been ‘let’s restore this basket case’ as a rebuilt it would have not caught to many people’s attention.
regular updates count for a lot as well. When I look on new build steam and I click on the link to a project and I see either an fb page, or a website that looks like it was designed in 1998, or no updates for 9months my heart sinks.
Tornado have been good at getting good hooks to get people and the media interested whether that is James May drilling something, or adopting the name tornado after the first gulf war.
Tornado also have something that perhaps only the Ffestiniog and didcot have a track record of doing - namely delivering on the project. People can see that a1st do what they say they will do and are here for the long haul and so when they say ‘this is our next idea’ people know that it will have been seriously costed, seriously researched beforehand and seriously designed. If I am going to give money to a project I want to see something come of it.
I wonder if at some point there won’t come a question of new building existing classes ie A4 rather than overhauling a loco that is almost 90 for mainline use.
Anyway, In terms of new builds things I’d like to see 5at taken to its full experimental conclusion with no concessions to having to ‘look’ a certain way.
Remembrance because I don’t think we’ll get a river, and anyone looking to build 4-4-0 will always get my vote, and a k, u1 or n1 because I like locos that get described as ‘maids of all work’.
Now I make no secret of my LMS predilections, and normally find myself defending good old Sir Henry Fowler, who gets a lot of stick (more than he deserves).
But, honestly, some of these locos we are well shot of and no one has ever missed: the 3P 2-6-2T in particular.
Why on earth build a 2P or an LMS 0-4-4T? They were silly the first time round! A proper Midland 0-4-4T would be much more interesting, useful, pretty, and would fill in a genuine gap. If you really want a 4-4-0, build a handsome pre-grouping one (Caley Dunalastair, G&SW Manson, Highland Ben or Skye Bogie, Midland Johnson 4-4-0...) not a underpowered constipated 2P!
The original Royal Scots were wonderful locos, probably my favourites ever (although I love the rebuilds too, especially if they took off the silly smoke deflectors and went for proper red livery like British Legion, and as the LMS intended but for the war). But as built they were expensive to run and maintain - much better by the mid-1930s with new piston valve rings, axleboxes, proper tenders, etc.
The Patriot boys have chosen the right project: the real highlight of the early LMS, building on both Crewe and Derby experience (with a smigeon of Horwich), truly good engines in themselves, equalled but not comprehensively bettered by the Stanier version.
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