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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    As has been said, at the time most heritage railways were starting off, there was nothing other than Mark 1s available in useable condition.
     
  2. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    This is about new builds though.

    PH
     
  3. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    No one is suggesting restarting production of mark 1 coaches. New build rolling stock is an interesting idea, possibly using semi derelict pre nationalisation coaches, some of which survived in departmental use as the basis?
     
  4. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Good points. The comment on once-knackered asthmatic M7's puts me in mind of my visits to the VoR in the early 1970's, when the locos were getting decidedly tired. From what I've seen on YouTube, extensive work at Aberystwyth since current management took the reigns has produced locos which look and sound utterly rejuvenated. Can't wait for No.7's relaunch!

    The standard of carriages now being turned out by Blodge is nothing short of stunning. It's hard to remember the experience of loading a very down-at-heel and saggy coach 26 "in a certain order" to ensure the doors could actually be locked closed, or prototype carriage 116 which, in original configuration, was like an oven on a hot day, of which there were many during 1972/3. If I ever get back to Gwynedd, I fully intend to sample those superb observation carriages (and a pint or three of Purple Moose!) ..... and the Corris's new stock.
     
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  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    In which case I don't think standard gauge is awfully far behind narrow gauge!

    I think there are a couple of problems with newbuild carriages. Firstly, fewer people are "enthusiastic" about carriages as locos, so it's harder to find a pool of people to both fund the project and work on it, as those who are interested are probably all taken up restoring what we have (another reason narrow gauge are ahead - they had little choice). Secondly is the idea of bringing back something lost becomes more difficult once you have built a couple of third class coaches of a particular design and want another one - the the next one isn't unique so it's less interesting, those who are interested already have one to go and ride in and look at.
     
  6. JohnElliott

    JohnElliott New Member

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    Given how useful the Bluebell find their LNWR observation car, a batch of them might go down well at heritage railways.
     
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  7. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    There have been worse suggestions. The LNWR Obs carriage is a real beauty and jolly comfy .... well, at least when running no faster than 25mph!

    Given the number of carriage designs from various pre-grouping companies which utilised them, perhaps re-visiting the Fox patent bogie wouldn't be a bad starting point.
     
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  8. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I submit that the GWS has enough Dean era carriages to make up a pretty reasonable train on the demonstration line, especially if they can progress some of the long term projects in the time scale needed to build one.

    Indeed the risk for the GWS is to end up with a turn of the century rake of carriages and nothing to pull them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes, and I remember talking to our erstwhile C&W director once when he was ruing the fact that we only acquired one rather than both of them back in the 1960s.

    Our operational notices allow that carriage to be propelled while in passenger service provided it is the only vehicle being thus propelled (and subject to a few other conditions). Were we to have two, you could have a very flexible train made up of a loco sandwiched between them, 140 seat capacity, less than 60 tons tare; easy day for the fireman with no coupling / uncoupling to do all day! It would make a very attractive, and viable, off-peak train with a P or a Terrier in between; and a passable representation of a Marsh-era LBSC motor train.

    Tom
     
  10. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    se
    Can I put an order in for some 8' 6" fox pattern bogies please?

    We will put in a repeat order for Bulb Angle to make new SECR underframes, then we can build some new SECR coaches
     
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  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    No, it wouldn't. I suspect about 120 tons would be a realistic limit on our gradients. Not the least issue would be water capacity, which isn't very big. I'm sure we've discussed the possibilities on the forum numerous times before ...


    If you look at the places that have made new build early locos (Locomotion, Steam Elephant at Beamish; Firefly at Didcot; Planet at MOSI etc) they have also completed appropriate rolling stock to accompany the locos, so I am sure that were any serious project to construct a Jenny Lind contemplated, it would include rolling stock within the project. It is notable though that all those early replicas are essentially running on demonstration lines of a few hundred yards - for entirely understandable reasons, but what no-one has yet contemplated is a mid-Victorian train running as a regular service set on a full line.


    The Gate Stock should have been preserved! The last remaining set was earmarked for preservation, but scrapped for unknown reasons despite their apparently being an agreement for the Bluebell to purchase it.

    Tom
     
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  12. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Need to think about new underframes I suspect. As far as I know, only one for a standard gauge passenger vehicle has been made in the preservation era so far
    I am sorry but it is considerably behind and not everything is a product of the Boston Lodge "Centre 0f Excellence" either.

    Such evidence as there is suggests that building one new vehicle can, I emphasise "can", encourage money to build more. The evidence is on the W&LLR where a legacy to build one replica led over a period to further legacies and donations to build the remaining two. This was not a cheap exercise but there was no question of the vehicles being overpriced. There cannot be a G.W.R. themed branch line that could not "do" with an appropriate set of vehicles, be they four wheelers or bogie clerestories. Do one well and the money for more may, again repeat "may" follow.

    Does it matter. Yes it does! I mentioned before, the passenger entering a pre-grouping era third class compartment who exclaimed she was having an "Eric Ravilious moment" looking at the grained woodwork, leather droplight strap and cheerful moquette. Not every passenger will be familiar with C20th. watercolourists but that sort of reaction will never be generated by a clonal Mk.1 interior.

    PH
     
  13. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    .... which is rather the nub of the matter. I'd completely agree that an 'entire period train' project would be the most logical route. Where suitable stock awaits restoration, all well and good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the case of the early locos mentioned, other than Didcot's BG kit, haven't they been museum led projects rather than groups originating from heritage railways? Getting folks keen to build, say, a Cudworth or Sturrock 0-6-0 is one thing. Getting said metal bashers interested in era-appropriate stock is a whole different kettle of fish. I'm aware the IWSR has an eye on a BP 2-4-0T to go with pre-grouping native stock in the restoration queue and the Bluebell's "what follows the H2" question remains to be answered, but AFAIK, there's nothing definite on the loco front. Has anyone seriously promoted such a combined project?
    Agreed. Wasn't the last surviving set actually en-route to the Bluebell when it succumbed to the ravages of time? If so, like the IoW's lost ex-LBSC saloon (6986/DS70008), you'd have to imagine the definition of "well past it" wouldn't be applied to such unique stock these days.
     
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  14. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    What about sleeping cars as donor vehicles? A lot of preservation sites bought them as overnight accommodation for volunteers and they are just there for that purpose, not really preserved in any real sense. I would imagine that they are by now in pretty poor condition too.

    Point taken, PH re interiors. Yes, early 20th century coach interiors are superb, but an early, wood panelled mark 1 is, in comparison to the plasticky interior of a modern train, too.
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Worse than that - supposedly it was in reasonable condition and had even been used in passenger service on the Yeovil Junction - Yeovil Town shuttles for a couple of days en route - but ended up being burnt at Newhaven a few days later.

    Tom
     
  16. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    The early MK1 compartment coaches had interiors that were pure LMS, a wooden panelled MK1 that has had plenty of TLC can still be a wow in my eyes.
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I agree broadly with that, but just to query a few points:

    Which vehicle? As noted above, there have been a few very early replicas made for standard gauge, but I assume you have some other vehicle in mind? I'm just curious as to which!

    I can also think of one GWR branchline that went to great effort about a decade ago to acquire 16 (I believe) GWR bogie carriages, even going so far as to repatriate a couple from the USA. Not one has yet entered service. So new builds aren't actually required, just getting on with what is already available. I can't help feeling that somewhere there was a mismatch between aspiration to kick off a project, and desire to slog through it to completion - perhaps had that acquisition happened on another line, we might already see a few of those carriages in service by now. If I were to be mischievous, I'd suggest that the lines that make the best progress towards an aspiration like running (and storing ...) older rolling stock probably have a degree of single mindedness in their governance, such that those projects acquire sufficient prominence in the overall corporate strategy.

    Again, I largely agree though it is worth noting (as was done by, amongst others, @gwalkeriow upthread) that a well-restored Mark 1 can be an attractive vehicle. The key is in the phrase "well restored". There are some very tired vehicles whose interiors don't seem to have changed much since withdrawal by BR in the 1990s and which hardly have a steam-era ambience; there are also a few that have been lovingly taken back to that era, though such attention can hardly be cheap. I suspect the difference is that those pre-BR vehicles that have been restored have almost invariably been done to a high standard, whereas the BR vehicles are a mish-mash. But we should probably recognise that "well restored / tired" is not the same continuum as "Mark 1 / not Mark 1".

    Tom
     
  18. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I think you're forgetting how few pre grouping GWR engines there are about, other than 2-8-0s and 2-8-0Ts, which would hardly look well with 4 wheelers or clerestories.
     
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  19. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    I'd still like to see the sight though!

    Also, if "Toplight" finishes his coach by 21st March I'd like to hire it for a trip on the GWSR to Broadway!
     
  20. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    So very close (a bit like the 'K', not much further away at Hove) that to call it "irritating" would be a gross understatement. Must confess, for some reason I thought the set gave up the ghost somewhere in Hampshire.
     

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