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De-streamlined A4's

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 26D_M, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    On the livery debate, I like a mixture, some in BR liveries, some in pre nationalisation too. Obviously some locos, like rebuilt Bulleids and Standards can only wear BR colours, and I think some pre nationalisation designs look better than others in pre nationalisation colours. I personally prefer the BR lining on black locos to the LMS version, therefore I think Black Fives look better in BR lined black, Jubilees I like equally in both red and BR green.

    On A4s, not really that bothered, what about LNER apple green? I've never seen one that colour and some did carry it.
     
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  2. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    But herein lies the issue of enthusiasts, apart from a very short period in the 80's until Bittern was restored to that condition not long before withdrawal there was never an A4 with valences operational, and there was never a problem with it, now there has been one its become a necessity.

    Out of interest as its way outside my comfort zone, did all the preserved examples carry all liveries in LNER/BR service or will we have a following debate about authenticity? Oh and finally I have never understood why the L & R's were dropped on the wartime livery, they were hardly onerous?? I know that the GWR dropped the R but retained a crest?
     
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for other LNER enthusiasts but I have always lamented - as in my entire life - that there wasn't a working A4 with valances on the mainline. When Bittern was outshopped as DONZ I was beyond happy. When restored as Bittern, just as happy. It's the ultimate expression of Gresley's work.

    And I have always seen it as a necessity. Having one with valances on the mainline gives everyone the opportunity to see what the A4s looked like in their heyday - that to me is important, as an LNER enthusiast. There are few locomotives that it can be said reflect their railway entirely. The A4 is one of them.

    The LNER dropped the L and R officially for reasons of austerity. Stock of transfers notwithstanding, official wartime livery was black with yellow lettering and numbering in various forms.
     
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  4. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the BR(LMR) lined red (as used on 46256 "Sir William A Stanier F.R.S") looked stunning when clean. I read a claim that this loco's sad demise was the only occasion when an axe-man at the (Cashmores?) scrap yard insisted on confirmation from his management before cutting started, which obviously (and unfortunately) he got.

    (From pinterest.com)
    b354e538b092b0025a97ed4a530988d7.jpg.cf.jpg
     
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  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    It is staggering that 46256 somehow failed to convince the BRB of its worthiness to the national collection, especially given 46200 & 46220 had also slipped from representing LMS express passenger locomotion.
     
  6. Forestpines

    Forestpines Member

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    No - only the first four carried the silver livery in service, and none of those are preserved
     
  7. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    Funny, it never quite worked for me on 46229 when the very similar LMS red definitely did.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    The answer is 'not all'. For some liveries there would have to be an 'identity change' - the four 'silver' locos (2509 - 2512) are a case in point, and things like the experimental purple were only carried by a small number of A4s. Likewise Apple Green.
     
  9. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thank you, I suppose more specifically can Bittern call the plethora of liveries being suggested, authentically?
     
  10. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    AFAIK Garter Blue and BR Green are dead certs, Apple Green and BR experimental purple are a definite 'no'. [L]NE[R] Black, I'm not sure, as indeed for Express Passenger Blue. It really is one of those "trawl the photos" time - not sure if I could even say "Garter Blue, E19, BRITISH RAILWAYS". But I'll trawl Colour-Rail for a while: certainly Mallard fitted that latter example and Quicksilver appears in black with LNER on the tender as 2510...

    SNG appeared at Rugby as 60007 with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender in Garter Blue...
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  11. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

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    Wikipedia reckons black with both LNER and NE on the tender, plus BR blue. Of course she's also carried different identities and looked flipping magnificent as both Silver Link and Dominion of New Zealand, so I'm not sure there's an argument on principle against turning her out as, say, Woodcock in apple green…

    Simon
     
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  12. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    Hence my statement above in post #108 of [...]For some liveries there would have to be an 'identity change'
     
  13. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    To each their own, of course. Somehow, I find the LMS lining rather overpowering on later express designs, but wasn't 6256 itself originally outshopped in the (rather smart) postwar Ivatt black livery in any event?
    No arguments from me on that score!
     
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  14. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    I personally like Duchesses in BR maroon, the postwar LMS black I wasnt keen on. Pre war, the non streamlined ones didn't have smoke deflectors, which to me, looked somehow, wrong. Therefore, in my world, a Duchess can only be in BR livery. I actually quite liked them in the short lived blue, one in that colour with a rake of Stanier coaches in crimson and cream, to me looks good.
     
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  15. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    I guess it's a matter of what you're used to. Looks at photos of the S15 at the Bluebell running without deflectors. How "Urie" does this look?
    (Gratuitously lifted from the Bluebell's Facebook site)
    https://m.facebook.com/bluebellrail...145967/?type=3&source=57&refid=52&__tn__=EH-R

    Photos of unfrocked A4's look to me more like images of certain post-Gresley loco proposals than they do A3's. Which I find quite intriguing.
     
  16. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    Forgive my ignorance here: but given other seemingly similar locomotives were preserved, what singles these out in particular?
     
  17. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    Not a lot, to be quite honest. 6256 carried nameplates declaiming 'Sir William A. Stanier F.R.S., while 6200 and 6220 were the first of their respective classes.

    I know many people believe these to be important; I have other priorities. If one should have been preserved, perhaps 6234 would have been more appropriate. That engine held the record for the highest power output recorded by a British steam loco; a record of more value than that held by a certain A4 Pacific, which was preserved.
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Although I'd regard the other two as subjective choices, dare I suggest either 46256 (the final express loco outshopped prior to nationalisation) or 46257, the two examples built to the modifed Ivatt spec were worthy of retention on the grounds of being the ultimate development of the ultimate LMSR express loco? If that doesn't qualify for consideration, I honestly don't know what does.
     
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  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Resident of Nat Pres

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    Mmmm, popcorn time ;)

    Tom
     
  20. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    [​IMG]

    Will this be enough?
     

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