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Defra stance on coal burning. Have your say now ....

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Sheff, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    if you believe that if restrictions on domestic fuel burning are introduced that will be the end of the matter then you are living in a fools paradise .


    "We are therefore considering a range of options to help reduce particulate matter emissions and improve air quality. These options include:

    • Consumers who burn house coal switching to alternative fuels (e.g. low sulphur smokeless fuels).
    • Consumers switching from wet wood to dry wood.
    • Introduction of sulphur limits for all smokeless solid fuels.
    • Provision of powers for local authorities to take action for persistent smoke offences, where local amenity is harmed."

    you believe the statement above has no implications for a steam operator ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  2. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    As i say I give up. If you want to waste your time please be my guest and reply to a questionnaire about domestic fuel usage.
     
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  3. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

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    Considering that steam locomotives used to run on "smokeless fuel" ie. coke, and that the introduction of the brick arch was the main reason that coal could be burned without complaints of excessive smoke, I would have thought that steam locomotives fitted with brick arches would be classed as capable of consuming their own smoke. Definitely not the case on a domestic open fire, nor indeed on the "launch type" boilers sometimes seen on ng locos.
    Even though smoke is produced during the preparation phase until working temperature and pressures are reached, this is only equivalent to the limited time allowance for black smoke from a factory chimney for example. I recall when my parents house had the kitchen range replaced by an open fire capable of burning 'smokeless' fuel, they were told they were allowed to use the usual paper and wood to light it provided they didn't stick to wood or normal coal all day.
     
  4. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member Friend

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    The title of this thread is misleading because it says a ban is being considered. But the linked DEFRA consultation says “We are not considering banning domestic burning.“ Non domestic use isn’t mentioned at all. It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that one thing might somehow lead to another but a sensationalist headline like this is almost as bad as the Daily Mail.

    UPDATE: Thanks to Mods for your swift response and for removing the sensationalist headline.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  5. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

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    Indeed, more likely limiting or controlling what fuels may be burned.
    I still am puzzled by the strong smell of wood smoke in some areas of London, I would have thought that the 'smoke free zones' which were introduced while I was still at school would have prohibited wood burning.
    I do recall that my mother found that it was difficult to burn "Coalite" on the new 'smokeless' open fire and had more luck with " Homefires."
     
  6. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    The Bilderberg Group will be behind all this, as they are with most other schemes to disrupt and destroy independent economies around the world...

    Richard.
     
  7. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Some kinds of wood burning stoves are specially designed to be usable (and legal) in 'smoke free zones'.
     
  8. W.Williams

    W.Williams Member

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    If we look at Norway, they burn a lot of wood for home heating, but they are moving towards specified moisture content and KWH/KG measurements on wood for sale. They already mandate the particulate content of stoves as they had pollution issues too. Damp wood is a big no no.

    As for Steam locos and coal, I can personally see steam ships, traction engines, and railway locos being the only legal means of burning coal in the not too distant future.
     
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  9. Allegheny

    Allegheny New Member

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    I understand that coal is still used for cement manufacture, although there is some movement towards refuse derived fuel (RDF).
     
  10. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

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    It's many years since a school visit to Northfleet cement works (which at the time had six rotary kilns), but I seem to recall that the products of combustion were actually an ingredient of the Portland cement production process.

    On at least one occasion a train of mgr wagons arrived at Northfleet and discharging had commenced (at night) before it was realized that wagons of power station coal had been delivered by mistake. That used to cause long delays while the wrong fuel was cleared from the semisutomated fuel transfer system. I'm not sure whether it had to be "beans" not "dust" or the other way around.
     
  11. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    I think Sheff has every reason to be concerned despite what Simon says. With domestic consumption at 40% of solid fuels compared with just 17% of fuels (which would include fuels other than coal) as used in industry, this is a major use to target. Leaving wood out of the discussion as non-applicable in this case, it says, the encouragement is to shift from house coal (or bituminous coal) to anthracite. Probably ok in a domestic oven/boiler, but anthracite is absolutely hopeless when used in a steam producing one as I've found to my cost in the past. Such boilers as used in locomotives need a coal with a bituminous content, from memory even so-called Welsh steam coal has a bituminous content of some 12%. The problem that will arise is that if the requirement for bituminous coal dwindles to such an extent that makes supplying it unviable, the time will come when fuel suppliers will cease to provide it. This process is already happening, how many towns have still got a coal merchant? I don't think there are any around here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  12. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    One day you might read what I write and actually take the time to understand it. In the mean time.......
     
  13. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    Perhaps it could be you that just can't grasp the wider implications of what is being proposed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  14. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    No it's that you have failed yet again to read something and comprehend what you have read but i really can't be a***d to spell it out to you as I'm losing the will to live......
     
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  15. W.Williams

    W.Williams Member

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    Ladies, really, over the burning of Coal...? I know its a subject about hot air, but perhaps your should take your overt romance for each other to PM...

    The mining issue is a big one...maybe we see Heritage railways clubbing together in future to buy a mine or two and pay to extract? Its not a crazy idea... no more crazy than building new mainline locos or bridging midland main lines...
     
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  16. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    Time will tell.
     
  17. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    There is an ongoing battle between femine and masculine values and I have an feeling where coal burning steam locomotives belong.
    Better start being thankfull that wind power heated fireles steam locomotives have been brougth to a high standard in Germany and Austria.
     
  18. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

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    Good grief.

    Simon
     
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  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    Heritage railways consume 15 ,000 tonnes of coal, 1% of industrial usage and a fraction of a percentage point of total consumption. I doubt that it would be economic.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...est-of-united-kingdom-energy-statistics-dukes
     
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