Diesels on steam tours

Re: diesel on steam tours

I doubt youd fill many standard seats at around £100 and First at £150 and Premier at about £300!!!

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Well yes it may well be your post or for that matter, the comments from the other five or so peeps that totally ripped into him…. on the other hand, maybe PG is just bored or busy… ?

As a customer, surely some of his opinions are valid, and he is fully entitled to know what product he is about to buy, we are all aware that sometimes diesels are a necessary evil for operational reasons, and all he seems to be suggesting is that this fact be stated within the product description.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Mark,
Many thanks for your thoughts.Well appreciated.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Fair comment, but palace gates has stated, and re stated, and re stated his views on the matter and after a while it becomes, well, tedious. The guy is perfectly entitled to his opinion and to express that opinion but I don't think he is going to achieve any thing by keep repeating it on the forum. Surely he should be lobbying the people who DO put a diesel on the back

 

Is there any legal requirement for a diesel to be on the back.

 

No but there is a need for a barrier vehicle if the last vehicle of the train would otherwise have been a loaded mk1 and diesels have on occasions been used to fulfil this role.

 

"Box on the back" has taxed many minds. Not just here but in Germany and Australia.

I was on a trip behind a coal fired pacific a few years back, due to go over the very steep Eifel route in Germany during a heat wave. Only a light train, and full. Until we came down the short "branch" from the starting point into Essen. A diesel backed onto the train, and suddenly there were empty seats! I'd paid for my ticket in advance so stayed on the train. And fully accepted that the loco, 03 1010, (know for it's fire throwing abilities), could well have burned down large parts of the Eifel if the diesel hadn't taken some of the load on the 1/50 climb.

That is the price we pay for keeping main line steam. And to me it has to be accepted, even though I really don't like it, being a steam "purist". Of course advance notice by Tour Organisers will always be welcomed so those paying can make an informed choice. In the above example the decision was only taken the night before the trip ran.

At present I am only linesiding SR metals steam. But will probably travel behind 34067 before she goes out of ticket. And will choose a Steam Dreams trip going through Shakespeare Tunnel as I am told that route cannot be used with a "box on the back"! Is that correct? My own observations to date have only seen "no box" trains go that route, whilst "box trains" (as due over the next two weekends), have to reverse from Folkestone to Ashford and return to London via Canterbury West and the East Kent "loop" via Ramsgate.

I'm still trying to work out when/why the VSOE trains need boxes. The Surrey Hills Lunch train has had a box everytime I've seen it. Maybe because it helps avoid LE movements at Victoria? Maybe because of the 4 miles at 1/100 straight after the Shalford water stop? In January this year 3 photographers plus a number of locals just stared in admiration as 35028 hauling 13 cars and a non pushing box made a most astonishing noise, (thrash/slog depending on your use of English!), as she went under the bridge at the first summit. That's something over 600 tons behind the tender. So linesiders benefited from the extra load, the "Railways et all" benfited by knowing they had insurance against a major delay occuring on a steep section of railway, and the passengers just got on with enjoying what I imagine would have been a damn good lunch!

 

Now that all locos on the mainline have OTMR, then perhaps the 'I don't like nasty diesels' brigade should stop throwing their toys out of the pram and demand an OTMR download so they can see if any of those horrible amps and volts made an appearance and ruined their day..... ](*,)

 

Removing the rather unpleasant undertones in the above post, maybe there is a case for those involved in operating trains with a diesel on the back to ensure a record is kept of if/where it actually pushed. The cost of doing that to be shared by those who want the information. If those needing the information can't agree amongst themselves how to meet the cost of such information, then it clearly cannot be provided.

But to a significant minority of people whose interest is recording steam locomotive performance, (I was/am in that group), such information is extremely important. As important to them as are other aspects of our hobby to each of us individually. Even if we don't always understand how others get their particular "fix" from the hobby, (i.e why insult people whose specific interests are not shared by yourself?).

Not sure a full download of data would be needed. Just a pre prepared pro forma statement that needs only the briefest of entries from the diesel driver as to when it was used to push?

OK guys. Tell me why it can't be done! I'm proud to say I've never been in the cab of a diesel loco, (let alone one whose work load on a train is nil/minimal). But from a good number of trips on fast moving steam loco footplates, I would guess my proposal would not be an onerous workload addition.

 

It wouldnt come down to the mainline crew to download it, it would be for the support crew to download the information which is obviously a highly confidential piece of material so just to make it viewable to people who want to know "when the diesel pushed" is all abit ott in my opinion. Again it goes down to the same old addage, a diesel is placed on the rear for operational reasons and when no other alternative is viable.

Let the merry-go-round continue.......

 

It would not even come down to the support crew to download it... not unless they had shelled out £1500 for the equipment to do so! The only people who have any right/requirement to access that information are the TOC's and Network Rail. Its only up to the owners to prove it is working, and that is done by the TOC taking a download, NOT the owner/support crew

Anyway, what would it actually show? A slight increase in speed? Thats the only indication of a push I can come up with... Not unless your talking about a download from the Diesel OTMR?

A completely out of the question idea.

 

Plus there was an ASLEF/RMT agreement I believe to the effect that a 'download' could only take place if an incident had occoured. The information is private between the driver, the employer and the safety bodies.

Data recorders were not invented to allow enthusiasts to get all excited!

 

This all sounds like that wonderful story about the early years of space exploration. The Americans spent millions of dollars designing and testing and eventually got a pen that would work in zero gravity.

The Russians used a pencil.

In this case debate about downloads, can they be done, the legalities, who does them, the cost of the equipment etc.

My suggestion was for a pro forma sheet for each journey where the diesel driver could just put a tick next to a relevant part if he used the diesel above what was normal engine speed for safe and proper haulage by the steam loco. Using a pencil to make the tick with of course!

 

QI alarm ringing and Stephen Fry having a chuckle....

Complete and utter urban myth and untrue! :-$

 

OTMR / Data Recorder downloads are also used as a tool to routinely assess the performance of the driver. These readouts supplement but do not replace the check rides the railway management also undertake by a Competence Manager riding with the driver a set number of times per year. Downloads may be taken unnanounced without prior warning as part of this process.

The information from Assessment downloads is private between the Driver and his / her respective line manager.

 

Of course it's untrue. But it makes a lovely story! To my warped sense of humour anyway.

 

I'll agree with you there!

 

Come on then Chris. Tell us if it would be an onerous duty for a driver of a diesel stuck on the back of a steam hauled train to place the occasional tick on a pro forma statement if the driver, ( I almost said "he"), ever used the power to push the train.

My "footplate experience" is only on steam, (only once driving and that was years ago in the Southern Hemisphere :shock: :shock: :shock: ), but even in such a dynamic environment it seemed to me that the driver could easily have done that even though he was actually at the sharp end of the relevant trains. So surely OK for a driver of a rear end loco that was mainly there as an insurance against problems from the steam loco?

 

The problem being is that if a diesel locomotive is attached to the rear of a steam hauled charter train for train heating / run round avoidance / 'insurance' purposes then the rules are quite clear.

Unless the trailing locomotive is to supplement the haulage power from the front, ie going up a particular gradient on a section of line, as agreed in advance with Network Rail or if it is neccessary to move the train because the loco at the front has failed or having serious problems keeping the show moving, then the driver of the trailing locomotive should not be applying traction power at all. End of.

Therefore the driver of a trailing locomotive is probably rather unlikely to want to commit to paper all the times he has breached this particular rule.