Diesels on steam tours

Chris, thanks for posting such an honest comment!

Which leaves me with my (possibly final), comments as being:-

Train operators should do their best to state in advance if a diesel will be on the rear of the train. And try to accommodate, (without any guarantees), known regular customers who cancel and ask for a refund when a diesel is added at late notice.

Performance recorders and other diesel haters should keep away from trains which are publicised as having a diesel on the back if that will to any extent at all spoil their day, or leave them with doubts as to how the steam loco actually performed.

And us linesiders who don't like photographing a diesel on the back of a steam hauled train? Tough luck in my view! Unless we are a member of the group who own the steam loco concerned and have made a high enough financial donation to have a significant say in how it is used.

In Germany the situation was a bit different as it was common practice for a number of the front coachers (out there the restaurant cars were in the middle, leaving those lovely German coaches with big drop down windows at the front of the train for the hard core gricers) to turn up and pay on the day. I think costs of operation were/are far less than in the UK as trains would run with only 5 or 6 cars sometimes, (made for some incredibly fast accelerations!). And the organisers must have built into their plans when deciding whether to go ahead with a trip that a certain amount of revenue would be collected on the day of the trip if it stayed as a steam only affair. Which mostly they did.

It was only me that lost out then! Often being the only passenger who had paid for a flight and two nights in a hotel to turn up and find a box on the back, (happened only once), or, even worse, a box on the front as the steam loco had failed, (again, only once for me).

 

To be honest, I can understand why diesel locomotives are added to the rear of certain steam hauled charter trains.

Let us say for example, I propose to run a steam charter train from Bristol TM to Bristol TM outwards via Exeter and back via the SR, Yeovil PM, Westbury and Bath.

The number of coaches I can attach to the steam loco (and therefore the number of seats I can sell) is determined by the steepest gradient on the proposed route. In this case, the steep incline to Exeter Central. If I make no provision for assistance I am therefore able to sell less seats and the profitabiltity / viability or otherwise of the whole exercise is threatened. If I attach a diesel at the rear of the train and arrange it to provide tractive power at the appropiate point on the journey, I can attach more coaches to the steam loco and sell more seats. I do not incur delay at Exeter attaching or detaching an assisting loco (plus brake continuity test and general faffing) and minimize the delay not only to my charter train but to other service trains trying to go up or down to Exeter Central.

By attaching the assisting locomotive to the rear of my steam charter instead of running it in front or behind my train I save having to book an extra path therefore saving myself money and / or affecting the viability of the whole exercise. If my steam loco develops problems I minimize the risk of the following assisting or 'insurance' diesel loco being blocked from my charter train by a service train (with incompatible couplings) being dispatched between my steam hauled charter train and the Diesel loco. I therefore minimize delay risk to my train and other service trains.

If my assisting diesel locomotive has ETS capability I can use this to provide ETS to heat the train and power the catering equipment. I do not need to provide or hire a generator van. The range of available coaches I can hire is therefore increased. Not all coaching stock has servicable steam heating or pipework fitted. As my assisting loco carries no passengers it can be the last vehicle in an otherwise Mk 1 coach formation.

My train now has a traction unit and driving position at both ends, therefore it can be more readily reversed / take an alternative route should the need arise or my train is blocked in by a service train failure. As are most 'unit' type trains on the network nowadays. Therefore the chances of my train getting to it's intended destination (eventually) are materially increased.

I realise these thoughts might provoke a bit of thought amongst the purists and people who consider such things to be heresy. However if you think about it it actually explains adequately the reasons why certain charter trains have a diesel loco attached to the rear of the train, bearing in mind the restraints of the modern UK rail network where not every place has a diesel locomotive standing by or the the crew trained up to operate it. It is a sign of the times we live in on the privatised and rather disfunctional network of today. It is however better to do it this way than risk loosing steam on the main line.

 

can i just sum up the above post to which i think will follow below my post



but we dont want a diesel on the back

but we need it for insurance

but im going to throw my prams out as i put £5 towards that engine many moons ago

yes but did that help pay for this trip

no , but i dont want a diesel on it

so pay out more

no i want to photo it

round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and this is just getting very very stupid

if you dont want a diesel on the back of your tour , well .....looks like your stuffed , if you want to go on a tour with no diesel , then can i just say good luck and i hope you get to your desination on time , becuse you know as well as everyone else , that it wont go well if you try and get a loco to push itself to its limt to get enough bums on seats to pay for it and make a profit .....it will just FAIL

 

Oh Well. My advice for diesel haters like myself is to stay on the lineside and only take photos on the outside of curves: as per 35028 seen here climbing Gomshall bank late last year! Anyone got a list of decent curves? You can include Katherine Jenkins in that one :shock:

 

Have faith Small Prairie ! Most steam tours run without diesels and they don't fail. Anyway its often cheaper to run without a diesel, but there are inevitably some itineraries which wouldn't work for various operational reasons without a diesel.

David

 

While you are online David. A massive thank you for UK Steam Info. I found this wonderful site very quickly after I started my return to BR steam last year. Amazing information. Absolutely essential reading for Steam gricers. I run five web sites, but none with anything like the degree of information that needs constant updating as your site. Long may you have the will to keep it running.

 

I guess that if everyone did that, then there wouldn't be anything to photoghraph?

 

I have watched this thread with intrest but not said anything yet. I can fully understand everyones point of view but for me just the thought of being able to travel behind main line steam with or without a diesel is just amazing in 2008. I didnt give the diesel one thought on my last tour (45231 to Canterbury June 2006), I was just in awe of the sound of the engine working hard out of Victoria and through East London (my girlfriend (of the time) just thought I was sad...). My mate and I have booked on Tangmere to Bristol and anyone who has seen my MSN will no I have been looking forward to this one for ages, just 288 miles of steam and I dont care if there is a diesel there or not!

 

Have to admit the box saved the day on the Folkestone train on Saturday! Without it I wonder if the trip would have got into the old SR at all.

Doesn't mean I want these box things to start appearing on every steam hauled train now though!

 

Bet there'll be some wishing there had been a diesel on the back of today's Cumbrian Coast tour from the outset!

Mind you, sounds like it ended up with several on the front AND one on the back!

Only 3 1/2hrs late back into Carnforth tonight after the kettle set fire to a variety of structures, see viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14795

 

Please don't gloat. ;-)

There could be some nasty repercussions from this.

 

No gloating from me.

Parents were on it and weren't exactly happy.

 

Personally, I don't really mind as it could be an added bonus, but heritage diesels would be preferable (66166 to Milford Haven was pretty boring on 5 May).

 

Surely, with about 100 tons of extra weight on the back of the train, the 8F would have had to work harder, making it even more likely to cause lineside fires.

 

AFAIK it was hot ashes dropping from the ash pan that caused the problems, something that would have happened with or without an extra 100 or so tons in the consist. However, it would have meant a loco was immediately available to take the train back to Carnforth (when the line reopened), this being the root of my comment.

 

I in a whole, have no problem with it.

I was on a railtour behind 6201 Princess Elizabeth back in February, we had a diesel on the back when 6201 took over at Hellifield. 6201 struggled from Settle Junction all the way up to Blea Moor and the diesel had to assist for some parts of the northbound climb as well as the southbound run over the West Coast mainline.

I can't judge on what problem(s) that 6201 had on the day but certainly had an "off-day" so to say.

I said to myself I'm glad the diesel did assist 6201, because I would have got home a lot later if it was 6201 on it's own.

 

And that I think is the point. A lot of people on the train were general public enjoying a day out. To them, getting home very late would not be acceptable, and may put them off steam charters again.

Its all about a balance. When the itinerary is safe and a good margin for problems is built in then let steam go it alone and have the glory - on challenging itineraries, take along the insurance machine.
I think the future of mainline steam will be in the regular, tried and tested trips: Torbays, SSE's Shakespears, cotton mills etc, and the benefit of these sorts of trips will be that it is more likely there won't be a need for a diesel attached.

 

Not a lover of them at all. Having said that if they are at the back of the train as back up not a problem now if they were directly behind the engine thats another matter.
IF they help keep steam on the mainline I am all for them. BUt on a personal view of all the steam specials that I have seen on the ECML they don't tend to have diesels on the back. The only exception to this ruling I believe is if the engine is a bit tired as in Green Arrow and Sir Nigel Gresly on its last run before withdrawal for its 10 year overhaul.

Perhaps Ian Riley could clairfy the position re diesels being attached to the rear of the train or someone else with main line steam experience.

 

Wasn't that the one where the diesel on the back had brake problems just outside Kings Cross and had to be removed? 60007, now unencumbered by 120 tons of scrap metal, subsequently made up the time that the failure of the diesel had lost.

 

Yes I believe that was the one