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Diesels on steam tours

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by stepney60, Nov 21, 2006.

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  1. Cambrian55

    Cambrian55 Member Friend

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    Lets not forget the stunning performance by The Duchess of Sutherland on the recent Royal Scot, the diesel making the train over 600 tons...
     
    Cambrian55, Dec 3, 2009
    #281
  2. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think it needs to be reiterated again as well that the diesel cannot and does not start pushing on it's driver whim.

    It can only do so in specific circumstances:

    Instructions in the sectional appendix.

    Prearranged special instructions for that particular train

    At the request of and on the authority of the driver of the lead loco.

    there is NO OTHER condition in which the diesel on the rear can apply power whatever some of you seem to think!
     
    southyorkshireman, Dec 8, 2009
    #282
  3. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    totally correct, the driver of the steam engine calls the shots, sometimes assistance is pre arranged, where the load and gradient makes a case for it , for those who say no diesels on steam trains, ok, what would you do with the engine that brought the ecs in, baring in mind runs from victoria and waterloo have to be dragged in with the steamer attached there are very few paths free for a le run to a stabling point, and a path has to be found to shaddow the run , if the box is needed later in the run, or you start the steam runs out of london at say clapham but you need to factor in people using public services being delayed by the longer waiting time needed to load the train the present way is the best that at the moment can be done, unless someone wants to re build the eurostar part of waterloo with run round and release roads with watering facilities and turn it into a purpose built steam arrival and depart platform
     
    martin butler, Dec 9, 2009
    #283
  4. Spinner

    Spinner Member

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    So,

    You're talking about what some of us in NSW call Assistant Rear Shoving Engines.

    Someone needs to develop a microprocessor controller, that is set to cause the D/E Unit to be weight neutral at certain couplings in the train, so that it is only pushing as hard as is needed to leave either a full goods load (for those that like to hear their locomotives work) or full passenger load for each respective grade. This 'weight neutral' controller should be overridden by brake applications (like a car cruise control) or can be manually overridden by the D/E crew in case of locomotive failure.
     
    Spinner, Apr 5, 2010
    #284
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    In an attempt to possibly bring closure to a debate about which we can have little influence (especially given the recent fire risk issues) can I raise what seems to me to be a Catch 22 situation?

    Assuming that a planned tour is popular, organisers will want to load it as high as they can, for obvious revenue earning reasons. Yet not all locomotives will handle 12+ support coach = 13 comfortably, or at least with sufficient ease not to run slowly on NR. I guess we are talking here about a 7P as a desirable minimum on long trains. The moment you add a DL for whatever reason, if it doesn't assist at all you are up to an equivalent load of maybe 16 and that's arguably too much for efficient progress on all grades. So whilst Sir Lamiel (5P) with 10 on and no diesel managed Parkstone bank ok on 31/5, but got a bit winded up to Roundwood, Tornado (8P) with a diesel and a longer train made slower progress up the Portsmouth direct to Buriton with the Father's Day Hampshire circular in June.

    My point is that a long train is good for income but only if the locomotive is up to it on its own. Once NR insists on a DL for either operational/fire risk/convenience reasons it just may be inevitable that the DL will have to help in places on some trips and with some locos. Not desirable, I know, and my guess is that if Jo Public were to be asked, they would prefer not to have anything attached as well. But that is not the real world we are in.
     
    Big Al, Jul 10, 2010
    #285
  6. palace gates

    palace gates Guest

    VSOE

    What has got to me about these posts is the fact that because the diesel is now behind the engine people are disappointed because they are unable to get a good picture.Its alright for the diesel to be on the back of a train because they can mask the fact that its there.It dosen't matter about the people on the train who have paid good money to be there.They are the ones that have the only right to complain and when they do they get shouted down.
    I am not going to point fingers at anyone in particular about this point of view except to say that as a passenger and not now a linesider(I was at one time),I will not be booking on anything until the booked times are issued and that I am happy that a diesel is not going to be on the train.You can never be sure that the diesel in a train will work or not.Just look at the Castle over Ais Gill.Perhaps sometime in the future sense will prevail and we may get unassisted steam back on all steam hauled trains.
    I am not holding my breath though just my money.
     
    palace gates, Oct 30, 2010
    #286
  7. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    Hear hear!
     
    Enterprise, Oct 30, 2010
    #287
  8. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    You make very valid points and I think the key is the first one. Having said that, a good number of delays are also caused by normal rail traffic failing as evidenced on this tour.

    I have now made a policy decison not to book on a tour outside of the spring/summer so as to avoid the wrong type of snow, leaf fall and the need for ETH. Not a bad policy given on mst tours it's too dark for 30% of the journey. Was thinking of a VSOE for Valentines but will do it in Summer as an anniversary instead.
     
    dp266, Oct 30, 2010
    #288
  9. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    I hope you are not inferring that the diesel was giving any assistance. If you are not then why mention it at all.
     
    RalphW, Oct 30, 2010
    #289
  10. palace gates

    palace gates Guest

    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    Because Ralph I am.I understand that it was working during part of the day and that power output figures cannot be relied upon.Figures are calculated on the weight of the train,grade and speed.The only way you can guarantee output figures is if the train is clean.Anything else and the logging of such trains is a waste of time and money.This has become my narrow interest and I am entitled to my view,and no one is going to change my mind.
     
    palace gates, Oct 30, 2010
    #290
  11. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    Hear Hear!
     
    dp266, Oct 30, 2010
    #291
  12. Matt35027

    Matt35027 Well-Known Member

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    Why can't people accept that a diesel is an occasional necessity in order to run steam on a modern railway?
     
    Matt35027, Oct 30, 2010
    #292
  13. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    Cathedrals

    Refer to Post #5 on this thread to save time
     
    dp266, Oct 30, 2010
    #293
  14. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

    Choice is first to seek compensation for failure to deliver the product you purchased. Second to make a formal complaint to ASA for misleading advertising. It may at least produce honest marketing.
     
    dp266, Oct 30, 2010
    #294
  15. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    I can accept that as long as a tour is marketed as such. Do the tour operators fear that open and honest advertising will stop people booking?
     
    dp266, Oct 30, 2010
    #295
  16. palace gates

    palace gates Guest

    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    Matt35027
    It maybe an occasional necessity as you put it but don't expect people that are interested in steam to put up with it too many times.They will being to feel cheated and look for something else to spend there money on.Lets do the thing properly,arrange the tour so it does not need assistance or not bother with it at all.
     
    palace gates, Oct 30, 2010
    #296
  17. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    So even the fact that it has been stated catagorically that, particularly on the return, the diesel was not even in first notch, you are not prepared to believe that statement.
     
    RalphW, Oct 30, 2010
    #297
  18. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    It's not a question of belief. If the diesel engine is running it is impossible to be sure of its power contribution. If it's dead, it's different; then it is just ugly.
     
    Enterprise, Oct 30, 2010
    #298
  19. Matt35027

    Matt35027 Well-Known Member

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    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    We go to a preserved railway and accept that they're limited to 25mph (because of the light railway order) and don't feel cheated, but if there is a diesel in the formation of a main line train when it's there to prevent major delays and large fines for the tour operator and apparently that's being cheated? Steam is steam and people will tend to take it as it comes whether it's limited to 25mph or being helped by a box.
     
    Matt35027, Oct 30, 2010
    #299
  20. palace gates

    palace gates Guest

    Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

    Matt35027
    Yes I do feel cheated.On a preserved line I know that its 25MPH.With a main line tour I expect what is advertised not get diesel assistance.That is why I pay between GBP75 and GBP100 to get on. If you are prepared to pay to be cheated so be it.
     
    palace gates, Oct 30, 2010
    #300
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